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guy wire breaking strain


By blueyonder, Section Mechanical
Posted on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM MST
 starting at the bottom and working up

 hi dos 545 kgs  maybe over 1.000 lbs . wire rope sound ok for a 2.4 mtr hugh piggot style mill.  sum times no wind sum times lots.
 for starters it will be 35 foot in the air. 2" od pipe.
  now looking for bits to build a tower.
  the list gos on and on and on and on. lots of the stuff i need ive had in the past but sold it or gave it away.
guy wire breaking strain | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 05:31:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Don't take this as expert opinion, I just sketched out a simple triangle, but if you had the wire attached at 45 degrees at the top, then at the point where the wire has 1000 pounds of tension from a force applied horizontally at the tip, the tower would have 707 pounds of compressive loading plus the weight of the mill.  I think I would be more worried about the 35 foot length of 2 inch pipe holding the compressive load.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Paul h on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 06:23:57 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm not sure how you arrived at that figure could you give the formula for that  load calculation? I might need that in the future to figure my tower out. As you can tell i'm no engineer so every aspect of wind mill calculations will help.

 Thanks

[ Parent ]



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 11:03:44 PM MST
(User Info)

This is an over simplification, but basically, if you have a thousand pounds of force pulling the cable up towards the top of the tower, you can break that force down in to its component vectors along two axis.  If the force were all applied at the top of the tower, you would need to apply 707.1 pounds of force.  This would be countered by the guy wire, which can only apply force at a 45 degree angle in tension.  In order for the   tower top to remain stationary, the sum of all forces acting on it must be zero (otherwise it would be moving).  In order for this to be true, the tower must be countering the downward component of the force acting on it from the cable, which at 45 degrees is also 707.1 pounds.  


In a real tower, the forces applied from the wind would be spread up and down the length of the tower tower as well as from the turbine.  The net force from the wind would likely not be in a direct line with one of the guys as well.  The weight of the turbine, as well as that of the tower are forces that will have to be countered by the tower and its base as well.  

In addition to having a significant safety margin in the capacity of the tower, you will likely want tolerances for corrosion as well.  Things rust and corrode over time, which can weaken them.  You do not want your tower falling down in short order from that.

Again, this is an overly simplified example, I am not an expert on towers, so take this with a grain of salt.  Make sure it will work before you invest your time and resources into building something which may not work, and could be dangerous.  Rich

'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 06:19:29 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I would make it stronger.  2" pipe is pushing your luck as is wire rope that breaks at 1000 pounds.  Nice to have lots of safetly factor.  Keep in mind also that wire rope degrades over time.

For the 8' machine I would not use less than 3/16" cable and 2.5" diameter pipe.  A small increase in cost - double or more the strength.



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 06:51:44 PM MST
(User Info)

hi,
i have a 2.4 meter mill similar to yours. i would definatly go for some thicker pipe if it was me. i use 4 inch with 2 strands of 4 mm polythene rope. i have 8 guys 4 at the top just below the blades and 4 at the bottom about 8 foot up. the tower is about 25 foot. stood up to 80 mph winds OK. my 1 1/2 pipe i used to have didn't,and that had the same guys on it. it flapped about until it bent in the middle dropping the mill off the yaw bearing and destroying the blades.

cheers
bob golding  



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by thirteen on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 09:08:38 PM MST
(User Info)

if you have the pipe you could double the pipe welding them together I would prefer 3 pipe in a trangle this depends on what you have to work with. Have you figured out how you will raise and lower the genset.It all starts at the base. A 2 in thick
 pipe will bend alot raising and lowering anything with alot of weight envolved. You also need to look at the wall thickness of the pipe. 5 / 16s cable at least. Solid places to anchor them. Just some ideas Roy



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Wed Jan 16th, 2008 at 09:53:43 PM MST
(User Info)

Wire rope with breaking strength of just 1000 pounds?  That sounds like 1/16" diameter.  That stuff is not really strong enough to be safe.  

Thin cables may be strong enough on paper, but once you put everything together and tighten them up, you can put a surprising amount of pre-tension on the cable.  Load bearing cables on that size of tower shouldn't be anything less than 1/4".  Many others prefer 3/8", but they usually raise taller towers and bigger mills, too.

I use 1/8" for little things like bracing the gin pole when it goes up (15' high), for example.  The connections are the killer.  The typical saddle-type fasteners for making a loop on the end of the wire rope are crap, unless you get expensive forged ones.

I once did a load test on the 1/8" wire ropes, one terminated with cheapie saddles, the other terminated with high quality saddles.  The wire rope with cheap saddles failed at 45% breaking strength because the rope slid through.  The other sample failed at over 80% of the rope's breaking strength.
Obviously swaged terminals will give better results.

Your suggested tower height and diameter needs a set of guy wires mid-way to keep it from buckling.  This light wire you propose isn't even strong enough for that duty.
Steven Fahey



Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by blueyonder (windwoodgood at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Jan 17th, 2008 at 03:49:46 PM MST
(User Info)

   just a update .the wire rope i was looking at was stainless steel marine grade 316.
  it was three mm dia. not sure what that is in inches.
  but breaking strain was also metric 545 kgs . but now i understand thats 1.199 lbs.
 or near as dam 1.200 lbs.  it can get so confusing at times. things in metric and not in inches. so i can look around a bit more now. i did have in mind 1/4" dia .
 galvanized. but thought s/s 3mm looked ok.
  the 2" pipe has a good thick wall. might be a 1/4 inch thick.
  but will check the id again .  got to get out and about round the steel yards to see what thay got.
 the 2"pipe i was looking at is used for scaffolding. looks verry strong.
 but thats in my hand and not 35 feet in the air with a turbine on top.
   so will continue to look around. cheers john.
its a ill wind that dos no good


Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Jan 20th, 2008 at 10:30:58 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Thats about 1/8" cable you're talking.  I would go with at least 3/16" and I would use bigger pipe.  What you propose would probably work - for a while, with little or no safety factor.

[ Parent ]


Re: guy wire breaking strain (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Drawbar (tsj5874@yahoo.com) on Fri Jan 18th, 2008 at 05:44:03 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.railroadmachinist.com

Since you mention marine grade cable you may want to price marine grade ropes. I am not sure which is cheaper but I know the running lines on sail boats (I am a machinist for a boat building company) are actually stronger now then cable, and have less stretch to them. I say that because they have no stretch which is totally amazing to me, but modern lines are truly amazing now.

I am currently involved with machining some blocks and organizers for a 64 foot sailing yacht and the breaking strength of these lines are 18,000 to 20,000 psi with no stretch with a diameter of 12mm. The problem I am running into is the weak point is not the ropes, or the stainless steel, but the composite hull these blocks, sheaves and organizers bolt too.

Again, 2 months ago before I started this project, I did not know how strong modern lines truly are. I would go that route, and plan to, on my windmill when I get to building it.



guy wire breaking strain | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
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