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Tapping 12v from 48v RE system?


By gotwind2, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 04:43:10 PM MST
bit confused

Hi Guys.

I want to set up a proper RE system on my brothers farm at his request.
I think I have infected him with the renewable energy bug :)

Proposed System:

3m (10Ft) diameter Chinese wind turbine - 48 volt (1Kw rated)

Four 120 watt solar panels 12v each (480w rated)

Wind speed average at a guess - open field, 15 mph.

Obviously I will need four 12v batteries in series to achieve the 48v charging voltage for the turbine and panels (connected in series)
My question is:

How do I tap this power off for maybe 12 or 24 volt applications?

Would this be done via the charge controller somehow?

Thanks
Ben.

Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? | 7 comments (7 topical)

Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 09:53:23 AM MST

There is no really easy solution if you want significant power at the lower voltage.

Connecting the occasional tiny load across one batter may be ok but if you want significant power then there is a real problem.

If you want to do a lot of this sort of thing then a separate 12 v battery with a means of charging it from the 48v is probably the only sensible way except for smaller loads that can be run directly from a 48/12v dc converter. These converters and also the charging equipment to charge 12v efficiently from 48v will be expensive. Far better to avoid these loads if at all possible.

For 24v you may be able to find buck/boost converters that will maintain the centre voltage and let you take a supply from the centre point but not a simple solution and in the long run you would need to change over the bakks to equalise the wear even if you can maintain correct charging and voltage.

Flux



Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by gotwind2 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:07:56 AM MST

Thanks Flux.

I will be using about 500 watts of power, 8 hours a day 4Kw/h (hopefully)

So I would be better sourcing a 24v 1Kw turbine and run it at 24 volts, 2 batteries in series,e.t.c and ensure all loads are 24v also?

The larger powered commercial turbines tend to run at higher voltages from my research.

How do other people manage this situation I wonder?

www.gotwind.org


[ Parent ]


Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:19:10 AM MST

If you are wanting all your loads to be 24v then that would be the best option.

Most people use inverters for most of the load, in which case you just decide and choose an inverter to suit. There is a fair bit of equipment that can be run direct from, 12v, intended for RV and boats. I can't think of much available specifically for 24v so I am not really sure where you would need to run so much direct except possibly for a fridge which can be 24vdc.

Without knowing all your needs I can't help much.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by richhagen on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 12:53:28 PM MST

I have seen some electric vehicles that charge a small 12V battery for lights, radio and such from the higher voltage battery used to power the motors that propel the vehicle.  The problem is similar, and for those vehicles, a dc/dc converter is used to maintain a small 12V battery.  I have seen various dc/dc converters on EBAY sometimes for reasonable prices, and have purchased a few for projects.  It depends of course on how much power you need to draw out at 12V.  A way to regulate the charging of the 12V battery and/or turn off the converter would be almost necessary to prevent wasting power when the 12V battery is full in a renewable energy system.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]


Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 10:33:06 AM MST

Think about how it will be used...
Then run away from the 24V.  Maybe even 48V.  At least on small systems.

What if he wants to charge his cell phone or cordless drill?
Ever look for a small 24V or 48V inverter from a name brand company?
Maybe 24V or 48V CFLs?  Switches?  

Might save $100 on wire, but in a small system, it gets lost on the other parts.
ie: Mail order a $30 switch instead of a 99 cent switch from the auto parts store.

Run a big 24V or 48V inverter to send 2W to the cell phone, and 11W to a CFL?

Depends on how it will be used.

I STILL don't have all the parts I need to finish a 24V system from a few months ago.
The same thing in 12V would have been a lot cheaper, and done in 1 day.
G-
Ghurd.info



Re: Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by dinges on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 01:18:44 PM MST

Ben,

How much power (current) do you need at 12 V ?

If it's just 2-3A max, you might have a look at DC-DC converters as shown in the picture below. They're found in old Telecom equipment (which uses -48 Vdc) where they were used to convert -48 Vdc to +/- 12V and 5V. I have a few (they're not for sale) taken out of old equipment  from a phone switching system. They can give up to 30W output at 12V, depending on the kind.



So, if you have only small 12V loads you might look into this. I'm sure on E-bay such modules are offered for sale. Farnell sells them too, if you're willing to pay Farnell prices...

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=WPQ40QJDC4UURQFIAGJZK0Q?N=500004+1001507+1278 87&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=dc+dc+converter&Ntx=&_requestid=217264

Good luck,

Peter.



And the answer to your question is... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by crashk6 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 01:59:07 PM MST

What you ask would have been a sticky proposition in the 1970's but is actually a simple matter these days with the aid of some electronics. The main concern is an imbalance in the battery back that would cause some cells to be overcharged while others are undercharged effectively destroying the bank due to the unbalanced discharge characteristics.

The solution to this trouble is a battery equalizer or in more technical terms a bi-directional dc-dc converter.

There are two companies I know of that produce them and that I have product experience with... there are some others but I have no track record for those and thus can not give opinion one way or the other.

http://www.vanner.com

http://www.solarconverters.com

Vanner makes a VERY robust product sold under the name VoltMaster, but may not have your desired input output voltages.
SolarConverters products work fine and they take custom orders.. e.g. your preferred input output voltages.

Ether way usually $200 to $400 is the cost range for these products.

Also check in my files I've put together a PDF of an old article in Homepower 7 on DC distribution written by Windy Dankoff. It details the use of the Vanner and some basic informal standards that myself and other RE installers have been using for a while for  the distribution of LV-DC.

Sorry no schematic for a home brew version of the converter.. I've tried to bang neurons with some other folks over the years to develops an open source design for the diy-er but I've not caught an interested party with the required skill set to help develop and R&D one.

Have fun and don't let the smoke out,
--
crashk6



Tapping 12v from 48v RE system? | 7 comments (7 topical)
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