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how does a grid tie tie in?


By Electron Pump, Section Controls
Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 01:31:15 PM MST
Tying into the grid. Hypothetically

  If I was to shut off all circuits on my breaker except for one unused circuit so that there is no power being pumped through the meter. I put another male end on an extention cord so it had one on each end. Plugged into my inverter and into a plug on that one circuit still on, Would I short out an inverter, or would I begin turning the meter backwards.
  I'm tring to figure out how power is introduced back to the grid. Wheather or not special connections are in a grid tie system I have not yet been exposed to.
  I thank anyone who comments. God bless what you are all doing here.
how does a grid tie tie in? | 15 comments (15 topical)

Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 08:06:51 AM MST

Kelly;

I think they call that male to male extension cord setup a "suicide cord". It would blow the inverter in a spectacular manner, also. If you were extremely lucky the breaker might pop before killing the inverter. Not likely but possible.

Grid feeding is a tricky bit of electrickery best left to the experts.

Others may explain the "how" part.

Tom

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Electron Pump on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 09:09:42 AM MST

  Thank you for commenting Tom. I'm playin with a car alternator windmill thats been a learning experience to say the least. I havent got it working yet but I think I finaly got a plan that will work. I just recently learned that I've bought the wrong batteries but I'll keep playin with them for now. I bought 2, 55ah sealed lead acid deep cycles on the cheap and my mill will produce to high voltage for 'em. Waah.
  I am ordering a super-core PM rotor and a Wind-Blue stator. I'm spinning a stock alternator right now with a three blade pcv set up. Cool to look at spinning in the wind and I can get 750 rpm outta her but hit it with a load and it quickly pulls down. I get 14v for about 3.5 seconds. But I was hitting a dead battery that wouldnt take a charge but I diddnt know that at the time.
  When I get my rotor and stator I'm planning on back engeneering the rotor outta stacking Neo's outta old hard drives. But that is after I build a good electron pump myself. I'm just going to buy my stators. That winding is for the birds.
  I've also applied for government help with a 3kw solar system. They say that here in Tx I can get $2000 from the feds, and $12700 from the State Utility meaning I'm only going to be out $1320 from my own pocket. If these numbers are right and I get the incentives THATS COOL.
  Man, thanks for letting me pull on your ear and once again thank you for comment ing on my "Death Cord" God bless and keep tinkering.  Kelly Perry
 kellyperry1971@yahoo.com


Electron Pump
[ Parent ]


Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:56:27 PM MST

I'm spinning a stock alternator right now with a three blade pcv set up. Cool to look at spinning in the wind and I can get 750 rpm outta her but hit it with a load and it quickly pulls down. I get 14v for about 3.5 seconds. But I was hitting a dead battery that wouldnt take a charge but I diddnt know that at the time.

Automotive alternators assume they have "enough" horsepower on the shaft to keep them spinning no matter how they load it. (At 3/4 hosepower per kilowatt it's a good assumption that an automobile engine, even at idle, won't notice the load.  That's not true for a wind turbine.

The alternator's regulator is trying to put as much current into the battery (up to the current limit of the alternator) as is necessary to bring it up to 13.5 volts.  Hang a discharged battery on it, it turns up the excitation and thus the load on the prop.  This slows the prop, which slows the alternator, which lowers its output voltage, which causes the regulator to turn up the excitation further, which rasies the load, which slows the prop, ...  This positive feedback loop quickly slows the prop until it is in aerodynamic stall - which further reduces the torque.  This will happen unless there is SO much wind that it can provide more horsepower than the alternator will convert to electricity.  With, say, a 50 amp alternator that's about 9/10ths of a horse.

So if you're using an automotive alternator you want to remove the regulator and replace it with something that "understands wind".

A simple approach is to excite the alternator's field with a resistor from its output (and add a blocking diode between that output and the battery - or you COULD add some extra rectifiers from the alternator's coils to power the field-and-resistor so you avoid an extra diode drop on the way to the battery.)

With this setup the alternator doesn't put out significant power until it's spinning fast enough for positive feedback in the (raised field current -> raised field -> raised voltage -> raised field current) loop to take off from the field's residual magnetism.  Then it ramps up quickly until it reaches the battery voltage and the battery clamps it there.  It runs at a stable output voltage (at the battery), with higher wind torque raising the current fed to the battery and the output current creating shaft torque load that limits the RPM of the turbine, much like with a permanent-magnet alternator.

[ Parent ]



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Electron Pump on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 10:27:43 PM MST

 I went back to the site and what the "State Utility Rebate" precisly is $11,679.20 on a 3kw solar system. Texas offers nothing for wind!


Electron Pump
[ Parent ]


Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by tanner0441 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 12:06:21 PM MST

Hi

In the UK the supply enters the meter via a company fuse, most domestic instalations 80 to 100 A. (Remember were 240 V). From the meter it goes into the consumer unit/distribution board with the main isolator and breakers, and RCDs (GFCIs) meter the current with a clip on ameter around this point with every thing on and see what current you have in the cables. Then look at the rating of your inverter. I bet they don't compare, and working flat out your not going to match it with a car alternator. Two 55AH batteries will give you 1000W for about half hour, if your lucky.

Also in the UK, and I can't see the US being that different, poking power back down their lines, if it doesn't kill you will certainly incure the wrath of their legal boys. As per the earlier posting it most likely destroy your inverter and if it is a big inverter it will make a big bang, and don't try the warranty.....

Brian

[ Parent ]



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by ghurd on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 02:37:52 PM MST

We call them "widow-maker cords" around here.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:02:36 PM MST

However the canonical "widow maker" cord is a line cord with a male plug on one end and two alligator clips on the other.

It was used primarily in radio and TV repair, back in the days of vacuum tubes, especially before the standardization of the appliance-end of the back-cover-interlock cord on TVs, for powering up the opened chassis on the workbench.

[ Parent ]



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by veewee77 on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 01:33:43 PM MST

The *ONLY& way I would (and have )ever try to use the "suicide cord" is if there was absolutely no chance that the grid was going to be able to be turned on. That is simply asking for trouble with a capital T!

Now, if you are somewhere with no power, but your building is wired for regular electricity, you can use the suicide cord to energize the existing wiring. That works great for me on a remote cabin that I have down by the river.

But, the lines from the power company have been disconnected and removed for years and there is just a meter loop and pole there with no feeder lines from the power company so I am positive there will not be a connection to the grid unless something DRASTIC happens.

Grid tie inverters are made specifically for tieing in to the grid and have some special electrickery going on that looks for the presence of and seeks to synch-lock with it. REgular inverted (non-gridtie) don't have such electrickery, but they do have a lot of that expensive electric smoke! If you let it out, though it is very hard to find end expensive to replace. . .

I never understood how they could get so much of that electric smoke inside one of those tiny parts!

Have a great day!

Doug



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:10:55 PM MST

I never understood how they could get so much of that electric smoke inside one of those tiny parts!

They compress it until it solidifies.  It's stable in the solid state at room temperature and slightly above.  You have to add heat or other energy to boil it back into the active gas/suspension state to get the equipment to work.  That's part of what the power supply is really about.  (It's much like the heater in a vacuum tube, needed to boil the electrons off the cathode.)

That's why putting too much power into semiconductor equipment lets the magic smoke out:  It raises the pressure until it cracks the container and escapes.  The heat of vaporization is very small.  So once the pressure is released the remaining solidified smoke boils off from the residual warmth of the device.

[ Parent ]



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:12:08 PM MST

It's also why they call it "solid state" electronics.  B-)

[ Parent ]


Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM MST

A grid tied inverter has additional components:
 - A line voltage/frequency/phase sensor.
 - A tie-in relay.
 - A line-current sensor.

The sensor detects the line voltage, frequency, and phase.

 - When it's within spec for an active power line the control computer shifts the inverter's frequency slightly, swinging the phase around until it's synchronized with the line frequency, in phase with the line, and at about the same voltage.  Then the controller fires the tie-in relay.  After that the inverter can feed the line by boosting its voltage slightly.

 - If something cuts the external power feed upstream of the neighborhood, motors and the like (and the inverter) will act as generators and keep the line "hot" for a while.  But the voltage and frequency will start to shift as the mechanical and other electrical loads pull the power from the rotary equipment faster than it's replaced by the inverter.  The sensor detects the phase and frequency drift, recognizes that the inverter is now feeding an "island", and opens the tie-in relay.  (The line-current sensor may also participate in this, detecting excessive load on the line side as another reason to cut off.)

Even if you could feed the line you don't want to:  The pole-pig transformer works just fine in reverse, so a lineman working to restore it could grab onto 15 kV where he expected a dead wire.

If the inverter isn't designed for grid-tie, it just free-runs.  There's nothing to swing it into sync with the line.  So it picks its own frequency and phase, mismatches the line, and tries VERY hard to drive enough current into the wires or pull enough current from them to swing the ENTIRE POWER GRID into sync with itself.  Of course it fails - pulling or driving enough current to boil the magic smoke out of the components.  And if you DO manage to get it running attached to a dead grid line it has nothing to avoid "islanding" and electrocuted linemen.

By the way:  Some companies (i.e. xantrex/outback) have models where the extra stuff is in an extra box, with the electronics hooking up to the main inverter's computer via a small signal bus (in addition to the heavy connections to the line and the inverter's AC side.)  This lets them sell grid-tie as an add-on upgrade.

(The same control bus approach lets two or more inverters synchronize their operation so they can be hooked in parallel to source extra current or series to form a 120/240 center-tapped supply.  In these cases you don't need the extra box of sensors and relay.  Those are just needed to provide the power-line's slice of "smarts" for the grid-tie case.)



Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by zeusmorg on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 05:34:15 PM MST

 In direct answer to your original question "If i was to shut off all circuits on my breaker" this does not totally disconnect you  from the grid, it only disconnects one side of the line! So you would still be connected to the neutral line. (return line if you care to view it that way) "If i put another male end on an extension cord" This situation is dangerous because you have the potential for exposed connectors being live, and will VIOLATE any electrical code anywhere that i know of. The powered side of any system must have recessed contacts. Any inspector seeing such a setup would have you disconnected from the grid for such a violation. Anyway, legally an extension cord is only to be used in temporary situations. Any permanent wiring should be properly protected and run.  

 You can think of a grid tie system as two "parallel" sources of power. One being the grid with it's massive generators and transformers and feed lines. The other being your personal generation.

 In a proper and legal grid tie system, the two act in parallel, your system with a grid tie inverter will sense the frequency of the main grid and synchronize to it. In the event of a power failure in the grid, your system senses the shift in power and shuts off also, preventing any "backfeeding" into the grid which can be unsafe for a lineman coming in for repairs, thinking the grid power is dead. In the case of you generating more power than you are using the extra power will turn your meter in reverse thereby reducing your bill by the amount that you're overproducing.In some areas, a separate meter is required to record this energy that is "sold" back. This situation depends on your location, local codes and laws.

 During a power outage your system MUST (legally) be separated from the grid to prevent any accidental electrocutions, and it also protects your system from overloads. Imagine trying to power 50 households your size off off your inverter.

 There are, however grid tie inverters that do supply backup power via a battery bank, and these must be able to switch over to an isolated system in the case of a blackout.

 Wiring a non grid tie system to "parallel" with a grid tie system is not only dangerous but WILL let out the "magic smoke". First off the synchronization of the a/c cycles will be off, since a non-grid tie inverter has no way to match the frequency of the grid tied a/c.

 If you do choose to use both grid tie, and a separate non tied inverter and power system, it must be totally isolated! This means the hots, and the neutral and the ground(s). Other wise you are likely to burn up that precious equipment you just bought!

 Neutrals and ground wires are inter tied on some systems so not having them isolated totally will most likely cause problems in those areas.

 I have generalized somewhat in this post due to the fact that there are many different  A/C systems worldwide, and even from region to region. If you don't know all the details of your own power distribution system, this is an area best left to a qualified electrician, which in a lot of regions is required by law, anyway.

When in doubt think it over again, when still in doubt find out! Safety first!



Using a "suicide cord" during an outage. (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:38:18 PM MST

If you want to use a generator during an outage you CAN do it using a "suicide cord".  But here's the right way:

BEFORE YOU START:  Your house will have neutral bonded to ground.  DON'T use a cheap inverter which doesn't isolate the DC and AC sides (or you might find your battery terminals and inverter case with high voltage AC on them, or a "magic smoke release" if the inverter has a neutral-DC bond internally or you've grounded one side of your batteries.)  Use a motor-generator or an inverter that has been checked to be OK with neutral grounded.

FIRST:  Open the MAIN breaker.  This cuts you completely off the grid (though neutral will still be bonded to the grounding system at ONE point in the house.)
 - Put something through the "lock out" hole if available, or at least put a piece of masking tape over the breaker, as a reminder to unhook the genny or inverter before switching the breaker back on - and to show the lineman that you know what you're doing when he sees your lit-up house and comes by to tell you to shut down so he doesn't die while working on the line.

(If you have a subpanel with its own main breaker, and you're SURE your backfeed circuit is fed from it, you can turn off the main breaker on THAT.  Then you can use one of the other circuits from the main panel as an indicator of power restoration.)

SECOND:  Open all the individual breakers except those to the loads you want to keep powered and to the outlet you intend to backfeed.  (If the generator is a 120V model these will all have to be on one side - red or black - of the 240V feed, and no 240V loads.  If the generator is a 240V model be sure it feeds a 240V circuit with a neutral connection so you don't apply most of the 240V across the more lightly-loaded side of your house circuits.)

THIRD:  Open the genny's output breaker (or the breaker on the backfeed circuit - and make sure there's nothing on that circuit other than the genny.)  Plug in and fire up your genny, turning on the output breaker (or backfeed circuit's breaker) last.

NOTE:  Backfeeding a GFCI breaker or outlet will DESTROY it if it tries to open with backfeed power applied.  It will become an ORDINARY breaker with no GFCI function or an ordinary outlet.  So make sure your generator isn't sitting in a puddle and don't bump the "test" button while running it.  (Voice of experience:  I fried a $70 special-order 30A GFCI breaker for my travel trailer outlet by bumping the "test" button while backfeeding through it during a power outage.)

Shutting down after power restoration:

FIRST:  Shut off the genny or inverter.

SECOND:  Unplug the genny or inverter.  (Unplug BOTH ends of that suicide cord, house end first.)

THIRD:  Turn on the main breaker.



And an extra caution: (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:39:46 PM MST

Treat the case of the genny and/or inverter and the batteries as if they have 120V on them.  They might.

[ Parent ]


Re: how does a grid tie tie in? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Clifford on Tue Oct 21, 2008 at 09:09:29 PM MST

If you are doing grid-tie, you will need the manual and automatic shut-offs mentioned above.

Your "neutral" wire should be grounded in multiple places so I wouldn't be so worried about that.  I assume you have a grounding rod outside of your box, and perhaps also a tie into plumbing.  However, make sure your main breaker is OFF when "experimenting" inside the house.

I have heard that if you have a basic induction AC motor, and drive it (somewhat) over the rated speed, then it will generate power and self-synchronize with the grid.  

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/6/7/223936/5604
http://www.gassavers.org/archive/index.php/Grid-Tie-and-Induction-Motors/t-5456.html

And, as I understand it, it stops generating when the grid power fails.  But, peronally, I don't think I'd want to mess with the grid without having approved grid-tie hardware.

If you want...

Search the internet for the term:  "Guerrilla Solar"

Also, in the past there was an inverter called:
"Trace Microsine Inverter" which was supposed to be grid capable 110V, 100W, but without all the other expensive stuff.  Look for models MS100/MS100U/ok4u

There is currently available the Enphase Micro Inverter.  I can't say it would be preferable to other systems...  but it is a modular grid-attached system, that in some senses is quite spectacular.  Each unit has a maximum of about 200W...  so one inverter certainly wouldn't run your whole house, but it might be worth looking at for grid-tied applications.
http://www.enphaseenergy.com/products/

Again...
Messing with the grid is up to you, but not advised without proper hardware.



how does a grid tie tie in? | 15 comments (15 topical)
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