Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
increasing alternator perf/eff curve


By bob g, Section Controls
Posted on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 06:54:50 AM MST
ok i can't stand it anymore, i have to ask

about 4 or 5 years ago i asked on the old board what folks might think of an electronic transmission to match the alternator with the intended load.

the idea was to use some form of switching electronics to dial the machine in to a specific rotor and match the two to the battery load.

didn't get much traction or interest at the time,, so

i am back with the same question?

i have seen really good alternators built here that produce maybe 80 volts open circuit driving into a 12v nominal load, with the result being a loss of efficiency and heating of the stator.

has anyone worked with a switched mode rectifier?

basically is is a  3 phase rectifier bridge that has the three lower diodes replaced with power mosfets

then the mosfets are driven via a pwm circuit to allow the alternator internal voltage to stay up high and the pwm switches the recifier to match the output to the batteries.

historically this is complex because most pwm control of 3 phase is used in industry for speed control of three phase motors, where even waveform across the phases is paramount. in a rectifier such as used to charge batteries this is not important and we can trigger all three mosfets at the same time and we don't need careful timeing to do so.

if the pwm unit takes a sample of rotor/blade rpm and biases the pulse width
we can provide a second handle, that being keeping the blades turning at their peak efficiency rpm.

the end result is we allow the stator to run at a higher voltage and reduced amperage, thus much less heating, increased output power and efficiency of the alternator.

another option that could be included in the pwm unit and provide yet another level of control would be 3 step charging and float with a trigger for a diversion load.

what do we need, a switched mode rectifier, an rpm sample circuit, a dump load relay
and a microcontroller to manage the system.

anyone doing it yet?  besides the big boys in the commercial market?

thoughts?

bob g

increasing alternator perf/eff curve | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by claude on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 01:03:19 AM MST
(User Info)

You mean something like this?

http://www.b-quad.com/products/alpha.html#rectifiers

Claude



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 01:25:40 AM MST
(User Info)

bob
I don't go back to the Old Board era but I did a diary entry called matching the load in which I covered virtually every method of load matching that I could think of. I concentrated most on using a boost converter at the low speed end because that was the scheme that I had tried and proved effective at that time. I did include the mixed diode/mosfet boost circuit.

Since then I have done some work on the buck converter approach starting at cut in volts and leaving the alternator volts rise with speed.

I can assure you that both schemes work effectively. The buck converter is better in that it is far less affected by line resistance, but if you have short low resistance lines there is not a lot to choose.

I don't have a site of my own so I have to do tests as and when I can at other peoples convenience( or perhaps inconvenience) so it doesn't give me the chance to get as much data as quickly as I would sometimes like.

I am not prepared to give results unless they have been measured under reasonable conditions and are likely to be fairly accurate. I had hoped by now to have more performance figures for the buck converter.

You may have seen this before, it was an early test I did on a 6ft machine under poor and turbulent wind conditions. The top end wind speeds were few and far between and the result is undoubtedly skewed in such a way as to make the high wind end come out low. It does at least show that the converter gains you power all the way up the wind speed range although the big improvement only starts to come at wind speeds beyond that test.

Recently the thing has been doing over 30A into a 24 v battery. Unfortunately I don't have wind measurements but they must be below 30mph as that was the highest gust figures from a local airfield located in better surroundings.



The top curve is with converter. Bottom is alternator direct to battery and the middle one is with some series resistance added to hold the prop out of stall ( usually done with a lower efficiency alternator direct).

Adding series resistance doesn't have much effect on the low wind end but does raise the high wind results by holding prop out of stall.

Whatever you do in the low wind region the prop curve is so flat that it can never effectively match the steep slope of a high efficiency alternator. The improvement in the lower winds from the converter is more due to matching the prop than alternator efficiency. The top end gains on both scores with the prop on design tsr and the electrical efficiency still over 70% including the alternator rectifier and converter.

Hope this goes part way to answering your question.

Flux



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Hoskald (letsgoviking [AT] gmail [DOT] com) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 05:24:08 AM MST
(User Info) http://letsgoviking.com

Flux,
quick question, how do you deal with the nominal voltage from the turbine since it varies a great deal?

Thanks,
Hos
____ For the sake of Peace the Sword... www.letsgoviking.com
[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Flux on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 07:23:45 AM MST
(User Info)

The ideal is when prop speed tracks wind speed, if the alternator efficiency is high enough then this virtually means that the alternator voltage rises with wind speed, so you would expect about 3 or 4 times cut in voltage at the furling point.

The interesting bit is to track the load so as to achieve this voltage rise. If there were no losses you would need the alternator power out to increase as the cube of its rotational speed. In real life with the inclusion of reasonable losses I have found that tracking dc current against rotational speed squared gives a close approximation and that is the scheme I finally settled on.

I take frequency from the alternator convert to a voltage with a 2917 tacho chip, feed to a multiplier to get speed squared and use a tracking control loop to track output current to speed squared. If the loop gain is low then the output rises more steeply than speed squared. By altering the gain I can get a good match to the cube law.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by commanda (alwynne at unwired dot com dot au) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 09:35:58 AM MST
(User Info)

I've also been playing with this stuff, but currently have problems setting up a viable test rig. There's a few notes here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/12/14840/1315

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/11/25/22656/782

I'm using an un-modified F&P as the source.

Amanda

[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Flux,

I don't think I understand something about that chart.  Maybe it's just a different turn of terminology.  I feel like a newbie asking this question, but could you clarify this statement, please?

"Adding series resistance doesn't have much effect on the low wind end but does raise the high wind results by holding prop out of stall."

I once added series resistance to my windmill to improve low wind performance, because the blades would stall... in light winds.  I can't picture my fixed-pitch prop stalling in high winds.  Power in is cubed, power out is (at best) squared.  Maybe I should go back and read your "Matching the load" diary.

Are you using a pitch-change mechanism that stalls the blades at high RPM?  Or is there a reduction in thrust load, in the resistance-matched and buck configuration, that keeps a furling mechanism from activating until a higher wind speed?
Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 11:58:22 AM MST
(User Info)

No pitch change or furling involved here in those tests.

The lower curves are just what you were talking about adding series resistance to improve the performance when in stall. The bottom curve shows severe stall from 15 mph upwards. That is the low wind end as far as I am concerned. If I chose a much lower cut in then the stall would come in earlier.

I doubt that the thing would ever get out of that stall in any wind. By adding resistance you can extend the operation to a higher wind speed.

Although there is no obvious bad stall below 15mph, there is still some reduction of prop efficiency almost from cut in and you can see that with the converter there is increased output in the region below 15mph. That was what I meant when I said that the added resistance has little effect.

If any normal machine hits stall bad stall under 15mph then I would suggest that the cut in speed is too low. I think most people go for cut in speeds lower than necessary in the belief that it will help low wind results. Only on a very low wind site is this a benefit. The first step with stall is to try to increase cut in speed, if it high enough and you start to loose out in low winds then is the time to add resistance.

Raising cut in speed by increasing air gap is a useful dodge for fine tuning but it is not a good idea to deliberately aim for too low a cut in. It is better to raise cut in with less turns of thicker wire and keep efficiency up. If you have to compensate with added resistance at least the heat is not in the stator.

With the boost converter, stator heating is no longer a problem.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by bob g on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 10:57:03 AM MST
(User Info)

i should have known that if anyone was working with this technology it would be
commanda and flux :)
and it would appear others as well.

it seems as though that there should be more interest in the technology
in my research i have come across much that is being done implimenting the technology on automotive alternators in order to go from 14 to 42 volt systems.
and seeing effective power levels go from 1.5 kwatt upwards of 4.5 kwatts from the same machine and with higher efficiency with no other internal modifications.

it just seems to me that this is an area and a technology that would have broad application and benefit on these windpower alternators.

i guess i  will do a bit more searching of the forum and see what you guys have been up to.

thanks
bob g



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by TomW on Fri Feb 22nd, 2008 at 11:32:45 AM MST
(User Info)

bob;

I have to agree here. Seems like the machines themselves are fairly mature. Cookie cutter almost.

I think the KISS principle gets in the way of machinery connected to electronics.

Some of these guys only use diodes because they Must in order to charge batteries and not drive the coils.

Times change.

Just eagerly watching.

TomW

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: increasing alternator perf/eff curve (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by finnsawyer on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 09:59:23 AM MST
(User Info)

It seems to me you are ignoring an important specification, the wind speed at which cut-in occurs.  If the mill reaches cut-in at a wind speed of 8 MPH with a voltage of 14 volts nominal, then at a furling wind speed of 24 MPH the alternator voltage should be 42 volts.  It would be logical to have the power out from the alternator with a nearly 100% duty cycle at this point match the power out from the rotor.  We can write for the power into the battery:

    P = Vbx(Va - Vb)/Ra,

where Va is the internal alternator voltage, Vb the battery voltage and Ra the effective alternator resistance.  The power dissipated by the alternator resistance is:

    Pr = (Va - Vb)^2/Ra.

If you double Ra and increase Va to double Va - Vb, but keep the current (Va -Vb)/Ra constant, so that the power into the battery remains constant, you find that Pr actually would double.  Increasing Va would also have the effect of decreasing the cut-in RPM or wind speed.  These equations are only approximate as Flux's experience shows, but they can serve as a guide.
GeoM



increasing alternator perf/eff curve | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 editorial)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  131 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by bob g

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!