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New Motor Conversion


By SparWeb, Section Mechanical
Posted on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:21:07 AM MST
Starting from a Baldor 3HP

I'm a fan of this method of conversion.  I have had a lot of time to think about it since my first conversion project last year.  That alternator has been up on my tower, producing power, for exactly 6 months, as of this writing.  I am still grateful to the late Zubbly, who inspired that project.

But now that it's been running, of course it isn't perfect.  The system suffers from 2 problems, as I see it:
 1 The motor is so large, it is offset from the tower axis too much, and
 2 The winding resistance is too high, making speed/power matching difficult.

Here's the candidate replacement:

The laminations of the rotor are 4.38" in diameter, and 2.88" long.  There is enough room for 12 rows of 3/4" magents, or 8 rows of 1" magnets.  I may stick with round magnets, and machine an aluminum cage.  If anyone can provide some reports of this rotor construction working for a long time, hot and cold, please let me know.  Despite what I've seen regarding construction, I have seen very little in follow-up on how it's holding up after a few winters.  Gets below -40 here.  On both thermometer scales.

Here's a surprise: when I look into the windings, I see only one layer in each slot.  My previous belief was that the wire groups would "share" the slot, with a isolation card between them.  Checking pictures of other motors and that is what I see.  But not here.  Does this indicate a different style of winding?  I'm going to get out an old book I have on motor maintenance (Rosenberg's; highly recommended).

Since this is a 4-pole motor, and the winding resistance is virtually the same, I could build it just like the first one.  This motor is at least 3 inches smaller in overall diameter than the big GE motor that's currently up on the tower.  That would solve problem #1 above, but I'm greedy.  :-)

Later I will be posting some analysis I've been doing with FEMM.  Thanks to this fantastic tool, it looks like I can use the results to predict cut-in and performance.

I want to thank Peter for his recent detailed contribution about his latest conversion.  I have learned a lot from that, too.  (Peter, if you read this, can you shoot me an e-mail?  I'd like to reverse-engineer your last conversion and there are a couple of very specific questions I'd like to ask.  (Thanks).

New Motor Conversion | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:19:08 AM MST
(User Info)

There are many ways to wind a 4 pole 3 phase motor. N America seems to favour the concentric coil arrangement while Europe tends to favour 2 layer windings with all coils identical. May be something to do with the different range of voltages the things are expected to cover and the way the windings lend themselves to this.

You could have any offset you want if you mount the motor above the yaw pivot.

These things will always tend to have a high resistance as they are designed for high voltage. Remember you are trying to extract power at a fraction of their design rpm, you must expect only a fraction of the original rating.

It so happens that for wind duty with the good thermal contact between the wire and the core and a howling gale blowing over it they can be grossly overloaded compared with the original rating and still survive. This means that you can get a lot nearer the original rating than you would for continuous duty at low speeds in engine driven applications. You must expect the full load efficiency to be low. This lets the prop run clear of stall and you get more power from the prop than the "stalled" air gap machines.

This comes at a greater prop speed than the air gap machines and this higher speed also helps to get more power from a small well overloaded unit.

If you can find the gap flux using FEMM then you can predict the output voltage if you know the turns ( unlikely with an original winding).

I was interested in that last one that Peter wrote about. The gap flux is surprisingly low ( not much above an air gap machine) so it looks as though you could throw a lot more magnet at it although the 4 pole arrangement would be very difficult without proper curved magnets. These strings of little magnets don't seem to get the flux up as far as I would have expected, but with all the gaps between them, approximations to the stator curve and the relative ineffectiveness of small magnets then I suppose this is not surprising.

At least you folks are less likely to have starting problems with iron loss compared with the commercial Chinese machines that have well designed magnets to fit properly. They no doubt get more watts for a given size machine with lower low wind efficiency and possibly better high wind results.

Flux



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:35:53 AM MST
(User Info)

"The gap flux is surprisingly low ..."   - exactly what I wanted to ask Peter about.

My models give me about 1 milliWeber, but my models also have 7 teets per pole, and I cut through the teeth mid way - not on the ID.

What difference it makes, I'm not really sure, but I've already made calculations that go from flux to turns to cut-in voltage, and they are fairly realistic.  I could not get this result if I used the "5E-5 weber" figure that Peter came up with.

Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by oztules (oztules__at__bigpond.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:08:40 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Oztules-toys

Stephen,
 You can leave the Rosenberg on the shelf, he does not cover consequent pole concentric coil three phase windings...

The last motor (3kw 3ph) I rewound was this style. the coil span is 12 10 08  and the no of slots will be 36.

One leg per slot because it is consequent wound (half the poles don't physically exist as wire poles, but as phantom poles). This gives only 18 coils (3 per pole (the other three don't need to exist as wire wound poles) x 6) and then  2 legs per coil x 18 = 36 slots.... 1 per slot.

The diametrically opposite coils are of the same phase and pole orientation (ie. N facing N..=U 120 degrees around finds N facing N =V and another 120 degrees around finds N facing N =W, the phantom S poles are created between them to give 4 poles per 2 coil sets (2x3 actual coils).

Notice a coil span of 12 slots for effectively 4 poles but not 48 slots, only 36. The phantom poles crowd the ends of the 12 span, and  the whole lot pretends to be 4 alternate poles of 9 slot span instead of 2 like poles of 12 span on opposite sides of a 36 slot stator.

What this means to your magnet spacing is I think Zubbly says your magnet width = pole coil span... here that can't happen, as you would need 48 slots worth of space and we don't have it, so a span of 9 slots for mag width should be Maximum.

Your Femm should bear this out I hope

Hope you can understand my ramblings on this.

........oztules
Flinders Island Australia



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:50:24 AM MST
(User Info)

The easiest way is to make the spaces between magnets half the magnet width. This works out near enough for a 3 phase winding. It's not desperately critical but more magnet makes little difference as it is linking a coil that should not be active. There is trouble squeezing in enough magnet so using less width is again not useful.

With a concentric not all coils are equally active at any instant, it just acts as a distribution of the windings, it reduces the voltage somewhat but improves waveform.

For wind turbines charging batteries you would do better to wind it with more poles and not have the concentric coils, but if you want to keep the original winding you have no choice. Remember it was designed as a motor with lots of different factors having different importance.

For 36 slots you can go up to 12 pole but you need to rewind. I think that was Zubbly's preferred method. It's a lot of work to produce the rotor, some may not feel it justified to rewind as well as all you are keeping is the original core, casing and end shields. If you dismantle the core as well to skew the lams then you are really into a labour of love.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by dinges on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:49:40 AM MST
(User Info)

Hello Steven,

Nice motor and will follow your adventures with interest. Reading your, Flux and Oztules' responses has taught me a new thing or two again :)

I'm still looking for an (affordable) copy of Rosenberg myself. Parts of it can be read online and they certainly seem very interesting.

All the motors I've taken apart so far had only one coil leg per slot, so I suppose that method is really more common over here (Europe). In fact, until your post, I didn't know any better than that this was 'normal'. Another thing that continues to surprize me (and makes me jealous) is the fact that North-American motors tend to have a larger diameter-to-length ratio; the rotors are shorter but stubber. This should make for a better slow-running multipole genny. If you have a look at my 4-pole 3 hp conversion, you'll see that the rotor is much more slender: http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/3HP-induction-conversion/motor_rotor_frontside

Was a bit surprised by Flux's remark that flux density of the 500 W conversion was low. It's nearly 1 T in the airgap above the magnets, whereas I understand that axial fluxes operate more in the 0.7 T range. (http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album69/blue_boy_FEMM_detail_average_flux_over_one_active_tooth)
But I must admit, I could have made airgap smaller, just that I have limited faith in my machining/building capabilities :) I don't recall having done a definitive FEMM simulation of the 10 hp conversion; that's another thing on the 'to-do' list for this weekend then...

You haven't explicitly stated so in your story but I understand you will use the stock winding and not rewind ? I forgot, but do you use 24 or 48 V system voltage ?

Peter.

PS: sent you an e-mail.



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:44:46 AM MST
(User Info)

Actually, the total flux (webers) in your model is lower than what I get, by a factor of about 200.  That's what's got my attention.

I will need 24V.  Considering Flux and Oz's comments, I don't think I will have much success with the existing wave winding they describe.

That's okay, I was saving up for the big surprise with all the wire cut out!
Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by dinges on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:51:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Strange about the total flux (Weber). Only thing that comes to mind is perhaps the units have been set incorrectly (mm vs. inch). Have just checked my FEMM model again but it's all in mm, as far as I can tell (planar, mm, depth of 1)

Peter.

[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:31:23 AM MST
(User Info)

This might go against the grain a bit.
Why not try it with the factory windings.  Send high voltage to a transformer near the batteries.

Just curious mostly.
G-



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Surprised you suggest this, given the number of times using transformers has been discouraged on the board.  A 4-pole motor conversion operates at a very low frequency, especially at cut-in.  Below 10 Hertz.
Despite this, I might have tried it anyway, but I don't have 3 matched 2:1 transformers rated for 500 VA or so...

Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]


Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ghurd on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:55:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Same here.  Or the freq is over 17KHz (steppers).

A guy who used to be here would have said use a transformer, I think.
Nobody talks about them any more.
G-


[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:56:54 PM MST
(User Info)

quoting myself: "I don't have 3 matched 2:1 transformers rated for 500 VA or so..."

Correction, only need two now... found a 1400 VA UPS today (same place as the Tektronix)
Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by WXYZCIENCE on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 10:22:24 AM MST
(User Info)

SparWeb, I started on a similar motor convert. Link
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/11/2116/17183
Zubbly gave me lots of info on it. Haven't done much on it. I will be very interested in how your's fairs.
Joseph.



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 10:11:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Joseph,

That posting goes back a couple years so it seems I got ahead of you somehow.  I remember that picture, so I must have found it before, in preparing to convert my first one.

I just had a brain-wave, while looking at another 3-phase motor I had and realized that I could take out its rotor, turn it down just a bit, and it would fit into this Baldor.  No risk of making things fall apart turning the rotor down too far.  Also a bit of trimming on the bearing shoulder to get it to the right length and ready for magnets!

I will have some more concrete details of what I accomplish later.  I'm doing this in small steps to check the results as I go.
Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]



Re: New Motor Conversion (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by oztules (oztules__at__bigpond.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:26:43 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Oztules-toys

I notice that Zubbly addressed the magnet span for the concentric wound coils  and gives a diagram of it here :
http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/zubbly/magnet_set_square_between_coil_legs
should you wish to use the original winding.

So the magnet width = inside dimensions of the smallest coils in the pole...... seven teeth wide.

.........oztules
Flinders Island Australia
[ Parent ]



New Motor Conversion | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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