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why are we going to 2 in hand?


By JB, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:19:34 AM MST
hi everyone. im back for a while

Hi everyone. I havent been around for a few years and wondering why we are going to 2in hand. i guess thats 2 strands of wire in parrell for the windings. Is this to keep the voltage down? thanks JB dayton nevada
why are we going to 2 in hand? | 11 comments (11 topical)

Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:25:15 PM MST

It's for more current at a given voltage.  An alternative would be to use a wire size three gauges thicker (which would also double the cross section).  But you can't always get the wire gauge you want.

Going N in hand rather than a single thicker wire also has other advantages when cross section is getting high:  It has less eddy current losses (because splitting the wire into smaller strands interrupts some of the crosswise current paths) and it's easier to make it bend into a coil.  It may also pack a little better and let you get an extra turn or so into a given space.

(At higher frequencies it would also reduce skin effect - especially if it was braded so each strand took about the same fraction of its run near the surface of the bundle.  But at the miniscule frequencies we're running that's not an issue.)



Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by finnsawyer on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:17:50 AM MST

Going two in hand with the same total amount of wire gives 1/4 the resistance with half the number of turns, which results in half the voltage at the same RPM.  So, the power out theoretically remains the same.  I suggest you run the equations for the power when charging a battery for the two cases.  Going three in hand gives 1/9 the resistance with 1/3 the voltage as compared to a single winding.
GeoM


Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by finnsawyer on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:27:58 AM MST

I suppose I should have mentioned that when charging a battery with the alternator putting out the lower voltage you still have the same forward diode voltage drops, adding to around 1.4 volts.  This, of course, will affect the power flowing into the battery.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by JB on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:33:20 AM MST

Ok. so lets say just hypothetical only  I have a coil wound with single wire 70 turns  18 gauge wire and im getting 2 volts at 300 rpm. Now I wind the same coil 2 in hand 35 turns same gauge wire solder the start and end  ends together with the voltage and amperage  still be the same ?. Also if I want to short my wires  to keep the genny from spinning  in high winds do I want more resistance in my coils. Thanks JB

[ Parent ]


Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:34:14 AM MST

Yes your 70 turns of #18 would behave exactly as the 36 two in hand #18 connected in series, but except for a dual voltage system it would seem totally pointless. You end up with a less tidy winding with an extra connection and no benefit.

Multiple in hand is normally used when the single strand is too thick or you happen to have something that will replace it by using 2 or more in hand.

In real life except for minor issues there is absolutely no point in doing it for other than practical reasons. I doesn't give you any other benefit.

I think it has already been explained that beyond a certain wire thickness the physical force needed to wind it becomes silly and there is also a point ( probably near 3mm dia) where eddy losses start to be an issue.

There are changes in resistance as you parallel multiple strands but I consider it confusing to look at that here. Your parallel group of in hand wires for a given number of turns will be the same as that of a single wire. You can only gain a lower resistance by paralleling if you can accept the corresponding reduction in turns ( volts).

I have neglected the minor issues of stacking factor where a thinner wire may marginally be better used than a thick one.

I think the issue has largely come about as machines got bigger and winding thick heavy wire becomes difficult. For machines of 48v and under 10ft there is no point unless you happen to have an existing stock of wire.

When you get down to 12v and large props then you would be in the realms of copper strip rather than wire and that would have serious eddy problems. In fact 12v at larger prop sizes presents many problems and may need sectional windings, but the ther problems make it a doubtful proposition.

Your last question about shorting in high winds is a bit complex for a simple answer. You effectively need low resistance, but that alone is not the answer. Unless you have enough powerful magnet material to induce a voltage in the winding sufficient to produce a braking torque exceeding that of the prop when feeding the circuit resistance you will not stop it.

In real life unless you have a powerful alternator you are not going to stop it anyway in a decent wind and the resistance is more likely to be determined by other factors.

Just to add a bit of confusion, if it will not stop on a dead short you may be able to add some extra resistance and increase the load on the prop to pull it of peak power, having got it into stall region it may then stop with a direct short. If you want to avoid confusion forget this last paragraph.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by JB on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:52:20 AM MST

I think you anwered all my questions and Thank You much. Ive built a couple Jennys about 4 or  5 years ago from the board. the garbogen and pm motors. I started this dual rotor back then and other things happened and now Im getting back to try to get it going. Ive always used the offset  furling after the 1st jenny  that I never found the blades just bits and pieces about 300 feet away. Im going to try to come up with some sort of mechanical brake or stop then just for those rare 50 to 75mph  gusty winds to totally shut it down .its rather spooky when those happen .  Thanks  again. JB

[ Parent ]


Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:57:08 AM MST

Yes your 70 turns of #18 would behave exactly as the 36 two in hand #18 connected in series, but except for a dual voltage system it would seem totally pointless. You end up with a less tidy winding with an extra connection and no benefit.

Also:  When they're in parallel the voltage between nearby turns is very low.  The voltage on each strand rises consistently as you work from the start to the finish.  When they're in series the volage between adjacent points on the two-in-hand wires is half the coil voltage.  This may matter if the insulation coating on the wire is marginal for some reason, or if a high-voltage high-frequency transient appears across the coil (such as during a lightning surge from a nearby strike).

Putting the half-coils in series also raises the coil's self-capacitance.  Not an issue at our frequencies.  (It might matter if you build one of the switching regulator schemes that uses the induction of the genny coils as a component of the regulator, as have been occasionally discussed on the board.  (For instance, to boost the voltage for collecting a little charging current during below-cutin winds.))

[ Parent ]



Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by joestue on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:31:46 PM MST

using the inductance of the alternator for a boost converter is not a good idea because the eddy current induced in the magnet and steel is a real issue for good efficiency (>80%)

Do you know of any failures due to lightning? i would be interested in seeing some photos.

[ Parent ]



Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Flux on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:21:35 PM MST

Way off the original topic but worth commenting.

I had reservations about using the winding for a boost converter, partly because of the eddy issue and I also thought that the inductance would be too low to be effective.

In real life the thing works perfectly well and I can measure no difference using the windings or using separate ferrite cored inductors. I still have an issue with sending a chopped waveform all the way up the tower and the associated problem of RF interference. ( not sure if there were any issues with the Bertgey XL1). I prefer to isolate the machine winding with capacitors and use separate ferrite inductors at ground level and keep the RF circuit short and screened.

If it was possible to obtain efficiencies overall greater than 80% there may be some measurable loss with the windings used as inductors, but with bearing friction and losses from other sources 80% in light winds is about as good as you can expect and that is not possible with tapered roller bearings. The actual converter efficiency must be quite good to achieve 75% overall. ( possibly 80% at the upper limit of the boost converter).

Theoretical efficiencies deduced from winding loss and diode loss are optimistic for direct connected machines without boost. On real bench testing at 24v it is hard to reach 80% at 12v I doubt that it is possible, so the converter issue is tiny compared with the gain by matching the windings to the higher wind speed and accepting less than 50 % at full load.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by JB on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:49:14 PM MST

actually my mind was thinking  not  to put them in series but to parrell 2 smaller wires to make a bigger one. I wasnt sure if the voltage would drop seeing as how there are 2 side byside  coils but with the same total  amount of turns but not serised. I was told 14 gauge wire might have too much resistance at high rpm for my project and I might consider fewer turns of 11 gauge. I have quite a bit of 16 gauge and thought about doubling that. I might just wait and make a test coil or buy some 11 gauge. Thanks JB

[ Parent ]


Re: why are we going to 2 in hand? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 02:21:10 AM MST

Two in hand #16 equates to #13.  better than #14 but not up to the #11.

Three strands of #16 would be close to #11 so give it a try rather than buy #11 which must be very stiff to wind anyway.

Flux

[ Parent ]



why are we going to 2 in hand? | 11 comments (11 topical)
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