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Vinyl ester resin casting lessons


By Boss, Section Mechanical
Posted on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 04:22:40 PM MST
wonder if adding 48 ounces of filler was going to actually increase the volume in the mixing container,

We've had more set backs than I could have imagined with the wind turbine project.
I'll post this as a new thread since I was criticized for hijacking the vinyl ester thread. in which I documented the complete failure of the first attempt at making the vinyl resin stator. Dad and my brother were here while I mixed and poured the resin. Dad's a retired chemist, and both my brother and I have experience with resins too.  

Dad converted the ratio of hardener for the quantity were were mixing, and this came out very close to my guesstimate. From our workshop in Colorado I recalled that we mixed equal amounts of alumina hydrate (the filler) with vinyl resin. Mixing this with a paint stirrer on the portable drill, we then added the hardener, in slightly less quantity than the directions called for to give us a little more time to pour the resin before it hardened. I mixed the hardener in for five minutes with the mixing paddle at a slow speed.

Above we got the layout of the coils even.

I've been wracking my brain trying to figure why the resin didn't harden. Now that I write about this and this goes a long way to proving that writing is good for thinking. Maybe the fact that we added an equal amount of filler to the resin we should have doubled the amount of hardener? We did wonder if adding 48 ounces of filler was going to actually increase the volume in the mixing container, and Jackson asked whether the filler or hardener should be mixed in first, and what effect the hardener was going to have on the extra bulk of the filler. Well it didn't seem like the filler added a lot of bulk to the resin, so we assumed that extra hardener wouldn't be needed, a mistake that I now see may have caused the resin to harden on the outside before the inside. It appears that there just wasn't enough hardener for the resin and filler. It is too bad that we had to sacrifice a mold and a set of copper coils to learn this lesson.

Above I had to braze tabs to solder the wires to the bolts used for wiring lugs.

Yeah, it's a bummer that the mold is coming apart when we try and separate the top from the bottom. We do not know if the petroleum jelly we used is just unsuitable for mold release or the long drying and hardening time of the resin caused the vinyl to stick to the wooden mold, but stick it did. It's stucker than we could have hoped for if we were trying to glue it in there. On top of that since I didn't know the resin wasn't dry I took the "C" clamps off the mold and set the mold and stator on its side to prepare to demonstrate it at Synergy Fest. Bad move, but who knew? I noticed right away that liquid resin was dripping out of the mold. We were running late for Synergy Fest that morning so I did not think about what was happening. I did set the mold back down flat, but I should have put the "C" clamps back on. The result was that the mold was no longer tight and the stator wouldn't dry with perfectly parallel sides. So even if the mold release did work like it was supposed to, the stator would have been unusable because the precision thickness was ruined. The magnet rotors need to be like an 1/8th of an inch away from the coils for efficient power creation. A stator which isn't perfectly flat absolutely will not work.

Above the mold outside on a sunny and warm day for pouring.

Again, the stator casting project failed on at least three levels. The hardener proportion was off which screwed up the drying time and consistency of the plastic. I didn't think about this and let the mold loose to dry as it were, unevenly. Then the mold release was completely ineffective. When I tried to pull the top off the mold on the second day the center of the resin was still wet and the outside of the resin which was hard and stuck to the mold separated from the other side and I could see the coils pull apart. Game over, right then.  

It is sad, no doubt about that. On the other hand, we got to learn several lessons on this first attempt at making the stator. Maybe this is a good thing. I mean if only one thing went wrong like we were unable to release the mold, the whole attempt would still have been for naught. We still would need to make a new mold, we still need to make more coils. Surely this time I can do a better job of winding the coils for better consistency. It will make spacing the coils a heck of a lot easier if the coils are all exactly the same shape.

So there you have it, another damn learning experience.
I'll get back on that horse before I forget what I learned, to be sure.
Sincerely,

Vinyl ester resin casting lessons | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:55:13 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Experience, n: "Just what you needed to know, just after you needed to know it."

Or from Bierce's Devil's Dictionary: EXPERIENCE, n: "The wisdom that enables us to recognize as an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced."

I'm sure you'll get it sorted...

Rgds

Damon




Re: casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:42:45 AM MST
(User Info)

Yes....I've often wondered why the bother of even
casting coils in plastic in the first place?
....Where just a few spots of high temperature hot
glue at random places would suffice?
  Now everybody hold on about stuff ....like ...
are you crazy?  Do you realize the vibration
involved and the wires will rub the coating off
and short out?
  This is just my opinion....no experience at
winding coils at all.
  I have never heard it mentioned here...but not
all wire is the same when it comes to the coating
, but it seems to me that you can buy a roll of wire,
 same size, same quanity....but a very big
difference in price...all because of the quality
of the coating and thickness?

  So you get what you pay for?

  Okay everybody feel free to jump on poor
ignorant Norm.  LOL !
( :>) Norm



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by snowcrow on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:24:28 PM MST
(User Info)

  Thank you Boss, for posting your mishap!!!  You just save me a lot of pain and expense! I was about to make the same mistake of mixing the filler in first and bolts too!!  I can see now were it may not be such a good idea.

  I thought I also seen a void on the inside edge of your mold. Sealing voids and making the inside of the mold as smooth as possible, before applying your release agent, will make it just about fall right out of the mold after it hardens.

  I looked in Hugh Piggott's How to Book, earlier today and found that he did add the hardener first.  I guess trying to save a minute during the process is not worth the risk, as you just experienced.

  I'm glad bad weather held me up the last few days, otherwise I'd be singing the same sad tone.  Hope your second attempt is a success!!

Blessings, Snow Crow



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Boss (brians.outfit(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 06:21:07 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.outfitnm.com

Yes in the photo there was a few negative areas, However before we poured I did an hour or more with a Dremal Tool spinning a small sanding drum removed all the places for resin to catch and not release, indeed I beveled the edges of the mold both at the outside edge and the inner disk. This is just one reason the failure was disheartening.
Brian Rodgers

[ Parent ]


Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jaskiainen (jaskiainen74inhottestmailcompany) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:13:38 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi all!

I've seen the trouble of getting stator out of mold here many times.
My suggestion is to coat the mold first with teflon tape.
It worked great on my first stator.
The teflon tape is often used with surfaces that shouldn't stick with
the resin when repairing or making stuff of glassfiber.

Just a thought...

Best regards jaskiainen



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by ruddycrazy on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 04:44:18 AM MST
(User Info)

Eh Boss,
        Just put this down to rushing a job you aint done before and 'thinkin she'll be right mate'. As you have been to the Dan's for a workshop this sort of ***up shouldn't of happend BOY. On you next pour DO your homework on the mix and get it right or you'll be wasting time and $$$ again.

 Sorry to be so Blunt but murphy will bite ya everytime you don't prepare.

Cheers Bryan

-------------------------

I've been called ruddycrazy for a longtime
so thats my nic in here



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Boss (brians.outfit(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 06:31:37 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.outfitnm.com

It's okay being blunt, but I thought I made it clear that we were very prepared. Absolutely no rushing, the stator we made in December in Colorado was hard over night. In fact I had my father a retired chemist, although he is 89 he is very sharp, go over the mix  and he concurred numbers my brother and I came up with. 1/4 oz hardener to 32 oz resin. we added 1/4 oz to 48 oz as I thought I remembered Rich at OtherPower said would keep it from hardening too fast so we could work the bubbles out.

Brian Rodgers

[ Parent ]


Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by jlt on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 06:13:24 AM MST
(User Info)

sorry to hear about your stator , If you did not ruin it ,it would have set up given plenty of time and heat. on my last stator mold i coated it with automotive feather fill,primer. it is a polyester product.i then sanded it with 320 sandpaper,and applied some candle wax with a propane torch,and a hot iron. when i opened the mold and turned it over my stator fell right out.i have been using polyester resin with cut up glass fibers in it.i do not know much about the vinyl ester that you used,just what i have read on this board. but the polyester has worked well for me so why change. it,s a lot cheaper too.



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by brkwind2 (mcool61@nspamyahoo.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 06:32:36 AM MST
(User Info)

You mentioned cut up fiberglass.
Did you use any filler?  I believe Hugh mentions talcum powder in his book.

Rover, stop it.
[ Parent ]


Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 07:24:08 AM MST
(User Info)

Polyester doesn't stick to anything. Vinyl is virtually an epoxy and will need to be treated much as you would an epoxy. Decent mould preparation and proper release techniques will be needed.

I personally would hesitate to use wood as a mould, it will require a lot of filler, sanding and preparation. I think Dan has gone to some plastic stuff and for good reason.

Maybe the candle wax treatment or something will get you a release from wood. Someone suggested PTFE film and that will release it. Even silicone coated mylar will probably do, but I am not sure of its availability, we used it on epoxy coil formers. Definitely  I would consider petroleum jelly a no go even on well polished metal moulds.

I haven't had experience of vinyl ester but releasing epoxy can be a real pig and it seems as though the basis of vinyl is the same as epoxy so treat it accordingly even if it is less problematic.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by clflyguy (sidney.raiford@gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 07:51:59 AM MST
(User Info)

Brian,
 This comes up from time to time, so I have cut and pasted my comment from a
previous posting. This method will give you a very smooth and professional
looking stator. Plywood works fine but you MUST make sure the pores are filled.
Use epoxy on the mold- why? epoxy will stick to polyester but polyester usually
doesn't like to stick to epoxy, just another built in safety factor.

"Make sure you have a degree or two of draft angle first then spend a little more time on the mold, coat it with epoxy resin to fill all grain, let cure then sand.
Now apply a second thin gloss coat, set level somwhere and cure- no
heat,it makes bubbles. When cured use real honest to gosh mold release wax and
wait an hour or two between each of the four coats. Mist twice with PVA (Part-All)
and let dry. Lay up the stator.. It will fall out of the mold when cured."

Gus



Re: Vinyl ester resin casting lessons (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Boss (brians.outfit(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 06:50:26 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.outfitnm.com

Thank you all for the great advice. I now see that vinyl ester resin is stickier than polyester resin, so yeah I am going to look for some plastic for the mold like we used at OtherPower. I reassure myself that this is a good learning experience, I didn't do a meticulous job on the coils anyway, so losing them and the mold isn't a overwhelming obstacle; just a bump in the road to building my first wind turbine. When i started out I thought there was just too many skills needed to build the wind turbine so I got the local community college involved. That was a bigger blunder than messing up the stator, but it did teach me that the way I've always done things is good enough: Solo. I won't go into what happened with the college if you are interested you can go to my site http://outfitnm.com and read the BMN (Brian's Morning Newsletter) the specific newsletter is titled "WTF is up with Luna CC"
How quickly we can shift gears and make a new plan is very important to being successfully resourceful.
I am going at it again soon, but for now I am focusing on Spring planting.    
Brian Rodgers



Vinyl ester resin casting lessons | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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