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CSA approval?


By mat, Section Wind
Posted on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 02:53:21 AM MST
In Ontario I must have my homebuilt windmill CSA approved!

I have recently just been informed that my 10 ft piggot windmill which has been operating for the last few months needs to be CSA approved. It is a 24 volt machine. This sounds absolutely bonkers to me. Can anyone help me in this situation??

I am off Grid and an inspector from the electrical safety just issued me with this order. I must get a field inspector to come by and see it at a cost of $152 per hour including travel time.

I live Ontario Canada.

-mat

CSA approval? | 30 comments (30 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Tue Apr 29th, 2008 at 09:18:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Put up a 12 foot machine and inform them that
you have dismantled the 10 ft. machine???
( :>) Norm


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wpowokal on Tue Apr 29th, 2008 at 10:48:49 PM MST
(User Info)

What is CSA?
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by GeeMac (foxunc@telus.net) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 04:50:11 AM MST
(User Info)

(C)anadian (S)tandards (A)ssociation (It's da danged snooping Canadian government)
GeeMac
[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 06:08:17 AM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

     I would ask first just what they will be looking for in terms of standards (without offering suggestions). If it's things like proper grounding, cable shielding, sturdy construction or if they just want to "see it" and judge whether or not they think it's safe.

     When dealing with the gov'ment, I like to keep it always in writing for documentation. Asking to detail what the inspection will consist of in standards and how it will be measured is not unreasonable and gives you a chance at coming out OK.

    One thing I would like to see is a network of folks that can help in these situations. A pool of people knowledgeable about rights or maybe with the media's ear so that picking on one of us is picking on the whole group. Assuming of course that what they ask is unreasonable. JMO
Andy



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by tecker on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 06:40:40 AM MST
(User Info)

Yes ask what code they will be following



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by electrondady1 on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 07:11:26 AM MST
(User Info)

i'm in ontario as well,
and i find it surprising that the csa would become involved.

if you were building a product that you hope to market commercially
or were giving public tours of your facilities it would be in there ball park
(not exactly sure what their  mandate covers)
but since this is a devise you have made yourself and intend to use it on private property it's unusual.

it sounds as though your electrical inspector was unqualified and trying to pass the buck.

good luck , try to keep us informed .

 

[ Parent ]



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 07:10:13 AM MST
(User Info)

CSA = Canadian Space Agency
CSA = Community Supported Agriculture
CSA = Celiac Sprue Association

This is it CSA = Canadian Standards Association
http://www.csa.com/

Inspector from electrical safety is most likely looking at this:
http://www.csa.ca/standards/electrical/Default.asp?language=english

When the bureaucracy catches up with you, unfortunately You have two choices.
One. Pay the price and hope it works. The victims approach, just don't know where it will lead. Field Inspector could ask for Lab testing... all kinds of stuff you do not have, nor could afford, therefore shutting you down.
Two. Fight. This can get as expensive as above if you do not know what your doing.

To not be a victim you will have to learn the law as it applies to you. If you do not then it will cost you, the less you know the more it will cost.

TheCasualTraveler gave very good advice. Find others in the area with wind gen, see if they have any experience with this guy. Particularly his comment "(without offering suggestions)". The less you tell them the better off you will be. Everything you say will be used against you.

Verify the guy is from the city. Scams everywhere.

Ask inspector in writing to cite the code (or law) as he applied it here in witting (Proper citing will list the document name (number), page, paragraph). Often the inspectors do not know their own law they are operating under to do so or will cite something that does not apply.
Over 700 CSA electrical standards and electronics standards address everything from fuses and light bulbs to sophisticated equipment for control and laboratory use.
To say it must be CSA approved is like saying it must comply with the law without saying which law.
If inspector cits a shock hazard, by law (international) under 50v is below accepted shock voltage limit, 24v does not apply.

Show the CSA stickers on the inverters, may be the only place it needs to be.

Good luck.
Scott.



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by electrondady1 on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:06:44 AM MST
(User Info)

the more i think about this the less i like it.
if you were grid tied i could see it.
 the components are csa approved or you would not be able to buy them.
i guess it's all about the  liability insurance.

[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by TomW on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:11:06 AM MST
(User Info)

hehe.

CSA to me means "Confederate States of America"

Only because I just watched that mockumentary. Hilarious.

I think that the original poster has just run up against an incompetent tin god syndrome infected public functionary.

It is just plain stupid.

Personally, I would demand to be told what exact rule or law or document says you need to have a turbine for personal use on private property inspected. All very politely of course.

I have a friend who makes equipment for construction companies. He had to supply a model of each device to a lab which they test to destruction. You could never get U.L.[our equivalent to CSA] approval on a one off design.

Anyway, stand by your rights and don't let them make it up as they go along. Demand it in writing, too. Tell them it is so you can follow the law as it is written.

Devices connected to the grid or house outlets may require it by default, however and this makes sense.

Just my thoughts.

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:57:53 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Hi,

I think the "so you can follow the law as it is written" point is pretty difficult for a civil servant to resist.  It should eventually neuter the incompetent/overzealous ones for a start.  And keep everything in writing, to give said zealots rope to hang themselves with.

If they are right, at least (a) you show yourself to be willing to comply in principle and (b) will understand better what you might need to fix.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Opera House on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:17:53 AM MST
(User Info)

Even off grid you have building codes which are applicable.  Electrical distribution equipment in the home may require devices that are CSA approved.  As stated before, you need to find what laws apply.  The inspector who cited you is likely as uncomfortable as you are with what is the law.



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:20:32 AM MST
(User Info)

Mat, I would spend the money on a lawyer and sue them!!!!!
Joseph



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ghurd on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:44:31 AM MST
(User Info)

Don't PO the guy.
Expect him to show up grouchy, because he expects you to be grouchy.  Be nice and maybe he'll warm up.

Bruce S' diary is a nice example of what can happen if you play nice.
You can always play mean later.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/4/22/1502/85625

Avoid fancy confusing dangerous sounding words.
What would you rather live next to?
"Windmill Battery Charger"?
or "wind turbine permanent magnet alternator rectified to DC for storage before inverted to high voltage AC for distribution in a residential dwelling"?
One has a better chance of getting fast tracked as simply a strange guy's hobby project.

Just my take...
G-



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 02:23:24 PM MST
(User Info)


Don't PO the guy.
Expect him to show up grouchy, because he expects you to be grouchy. Be nice and maybe he'll warm up.


ghurd,I have been there. Had a fun time with the likes of their ilk. Take my advice hit them hard and fast. Then they can warm up to the fact it is going to cost them lots of money also!
  1. Get the full name and number of the inspector.
  2. Tell them their full name and number will be in the law suit.
  3. Send a retainer fee to your lawyer and the letter.
It will now be tied up in court for years.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by DigitalMind on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:59:36 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.techienation.com

My sister lives in an off-grid home in Ontario.  During the construction of the home, even though they were NOT having any power installed, by law, they HAD to put electrical wiring for outlets every 10 feet or so along the walls, and put X amount of light fixture wiring for X amount of square footage.  It was totally ridiculous, although it did make my job a lot easier when I went and installed a couple of Solar panels there.  ( http://www.techienation.com/?p=21 )  They had to have it all connected to a fuse panel that they didn't want.

I wish you the best of luck with this, and plan on checking on your progress since I am also planning on putting up a wind turbine on her 10 acres.  

Jason




Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:29:26 AM MST
(User Info)

Just what is CSA?

I tried to down load some of the CSA documents, everything was $50/section.

Got me to thinking, the law is supposed to be accessible by the public, if charging for a copy then its not public.

USA standards are done that way. Like UL approval for manufactured goods.
When you build one of something or for your self you do not have to get UL approval for it. You do have to follow local codes here which are based on NEC (national electrical code) but not standards.

The brick (wall wart) to power my laptop has CSA on it along with others.

Have fun,
Scott.



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 01:27:40 PM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

YES, what Ghurd said,

     Don't PO the guy. The best bet is always be nice and play a little stupid. Offer nothing, just listen.

     In my dealings with building inspectors I am often faced with this kind of stuff. Someone tells me I have to do something, I say "wow, no other way?" Often they will say no, then I just look at them. Don't say anything. The average person will become very uncomfortable and start mumbling, "well you could do this or maybe we don't need that", I just nod and listen, offering nothing and often he resolves the whole thing himself with nothing changing.

    If that doesn't do it then I often overwhelm them with info. And ask for more info that they don't have a clue about.
     Gee, the code your talking about is for 110 and 220 volt AC residential wiring but I'm talking low voltage DC. Does that mean an inspector needs to come out before I can jump start one car with the battery from another one? No? Whats the difference?

     Yes, play nice, never get combative. Public servants often love that. Don't offer info, and get things in writing. And the best way to get things in writing is to contact them that way and never talk to them in person or on the phone. Good Luck.
Andy



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 03:56:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Mat
 Are you off grid because the grid is inaccessable to you? Neighbors close bye that complained maybe?

 Seems to me it would be an insurance issue if anything.

 Mark



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 04:19:04 PM MST
(User Info)

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/1/11/134238/460

[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 06:15:06 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm not sure what your up to Mat?Is all this just to attract people to your sight?

 Hope i'm wrong. But?????

[ Parent ]



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by WXYZCIENCE on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 06:46:08 PM MST
(User Info)

Mark, I agree something amiss here!
It has to be insurance related or something to do with building codes. Sure would be helpful if Mat would respond with more info.
Joseph

[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Sly on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 04:58:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Ok,

CSA is the equivalent of UL or CE or any other agency that makes sure that electrical equipment/devices are built correctly. i.e. looks for proper grounding, bonding, proper size fuse, proper wire size etc..

The "Inspector" referred above is probably from ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) i.e. the guy that would inspect any electrical renovations, new installations, alterations. Keep in mind that ESA is were you apply for electrical permits and once deficiencies (if any) are corrected gives the energisation permit.

His mandate is to make sure that equipment is CSA approved and installed as per the Ontario Electrical Safety Code. Pretty well anything electrical in Ontario as to be CSA approved.

When equipment is not CSA approved as an alternative you can bring in a different division of ESA called Field Evaluation for a "Special Inspection" for the fee mentioned above. Once requirements are satisfied he puts his own sticker on it which is equivalent of CSA approval.

Think twice before you tell this guy to buzz off. Although rare he has the authority to get you disconnected from the grid if he feels your installation is unsafe. (It's like when a cop asks you to step out of the car, yes you can tell him to buzz off but...)

Surely in a industrialized country like the USA you have all of the same rules and regulations that you "should" abide by but just different names.

Just my long winded $0.02 but I deal with this on a daily basis.

sly



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by boB on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 05:35:07 PM MST
(User Info) http://bob.gudgel.org


Sounds to me like the equivalent of an National Electric Code (NEC) inspector down here.

A lot of the equipment must be listed to UL specifications by UL/ETL/CSA or equivalent approved organization here.

I didn't know that the CSA did home electrical inspections in Canada.

Better call the CIA or KGB.

boB

[ Parent ]



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by vacuum1313 (vacuum1313atyahoo.ca) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:47:38 PM MST
(User Info)

The inspector would not have been from the CSA but one using the standards they set.  Check the order you received, it should cite the relavent regulations, such as the building code or electrical code, that this order is based on.  If it doesn't simply call up the inspector or his office and ask for the info so you can "check out your system and have the relavant parts easily accessible for the inspection".  In this manner you get the info and appear to be co-operating.  Once you have the pertinant regulations in hand read them and decide if they are applicable to you.  If so get ready for the inspection if not it will be up to you whether you fight city hall.  Building code and electrical regulations could be enforceable even if not normally so if any minor children live with you, you are not allowed to "recklessly" endanger them, or if there are neighbours within a certain distance, changes with different municipalities, that may be affected if the tower comes down or if an electrical fire occures.

The other possibility is it could have been an insurance inspection if you've applied for new or upgraded coverage recently.  If so your only option would be to change companies as insurers can pretty much put any conditions they want to in a contract.

More info is needed to really provide good comments.  Oh yes, are you living in an unregulated township?  If so the regulations your are dealing with are the national building codes which tend to be more general and more open to interpretation.  Regardless there is, if you figure the regs shouldn't apply to you, an appeal procedure both at the provincial and federal level.

Max K, Ontario Canada
Vacuum1313; It can be done!



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by Shadow on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:05:33 PM MST
(User Info)

If you go to his site and read his blog, it now sounds like he dosent need to be CSA approved for 24 volt.He just hasnt bothered to udate us here.



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by offgrid07 on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 06:55:30 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi,

I live in Ontario and have been living off the grid for over 15 years now with wind and solar power. We do solar and wind installations and from our experience, the Electrical Inspectors are very scared of Off Grid or renewable energy installations. They view it as a threat to their livelihood in some way. Since the Grid Electicity- Hydro One in Ontario is a government utility (they say it's private) they view Off grid as a threat as well.
There is some talk about the two , inspectors and Hydro One, being paid from the same pocket. Or they are in each others pockets?
The point is, that someone's livelihood is being threatened , or so they think and they are trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass where renewable energy is concerned.
You will also notice that there are no government incentives for Off grid in Ontario, Only Grid Tie- why do you think that is? Tied to the Grid is still under the supervision of Hydro One and it's inspectors.
Also, you should realize that all of your installations have to meet the Canadian Electrical Code, this is a must. We actually hired an Electrician to subcontract our installations and sign the papers.
Do you know a licenced Electrician? Have him present when the inspection is done. We work in the trade and these guys want you to follow the rules too, but they see the opportunities in renewable energy as well. Having one present will help your case.
This is the first we have heard that homebuilt windmills would be under scrutiny. We have built 3 machines ourselves, from 6 to 12 foot models.
The installation was inspected and approved, each one, but no mention of CSA.
Probably a matter of education mostly, have an expert on hand or get some advice from an electrician who is licenced.
You didn't say where you were? Email me at offgridliving08@hotmail.com if you can and I will help any way I can.




Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by nick1234 on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 10:45:52 PM MST
(User Info)

i guess the inspector did not see the license electrician's permit at the main and so he look for some way to give you a headache  to him you are not up to code i live in Quebec Canada and here technically you can not add an extra outlet without an electrician doing it. It's funny but you can pick up all you need at wall mart or  Home hw. and DIY illegally
i think all they what is there source of revenue taxes and permit fees
nick1234
Qc.Ca.

[ Parent ]


Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by Buzz Hacksaw (buzz_hacksaw@rogers.com) on Sat May 3rd, 2008 at 11:39:45 AM MST
(User Info)

Re CSA
 It has been my experience that CSA approval requires lab testing.
 There seems to be a lot resistance in the form of dissuasion to all forms of personal micro generation of any sort, here in the land of the free.
 I investigated the "Standard Offer" program. This is a program that is intended to inspire entrepreneurial development of alternative energy production. But as it turns out the now privately held power companies in Ontario don't want anything to do with it. Their best offer is to "Net Meter" to a Zero balance on your bill and that any extra electricity, over what your household or business uses, will not be compensated. This even thought the mandatory connections and inspections for grid connection have been done.
 A fellow here in Collingwood is starting a commercial Mushroom operation, he has two huge boilers that he will be powering using some sort of straw turbine. The straw is a waste product of locally grown grain. He mainly needs the heat and some electricity for ventilation and lights. His system will produce an extra 10 Kwh. He wanted to get grid connected and was told by Ontario Hydro that he would have to employ 3-5 full time engineers at 70K /y to manage the system.
 I believe that corporative interests are involved and governments are powerless to really affect this country's effort to power alternatively. This can be the only explanation for why we lag so far behind other countries. I also believe that micro generation is the most affective form of energy creation. I draw the parallel, "I would rather be owed $1 by 100 people than $100 by 1 person".
 The CSA and ESA "Electrical Authority Ass." are gov't agencies. And the rep that visited Mat has no clue why he's doing what he doing. I site the recent redundant and massive changes to the electrical code. Why? Has electricity change it's properties in the last few years? Have the changes made a measurable improvement in safety? No. It's more to justify their existence than anything else.
 In Mats case I would be inclined to leave it up. Don't intimidate the inspector. Write your local paper as to what is happening and try to make a public case against Big Brother. Put a sign up at the end of your driveway. "Big Brother wants me to use dirty energy". At the very least we can raise awareness of the issue. Keep it up as long as you can.
Cheers
Buzz_Hacksaw@rogers.com




Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Reno on Sat May 3rd, 2008 at 12:30:28 PM MST
(User Info)

10 ft piggot windmill
Did you buy this machine. CSA would have no say if you built it yourself. I suggest you ask exactly what CSA standard you need to meet. If you bought the machine, buy another and this time tell the guy you built it. Then they will send the local building inspector after you.



Re: CSA approval? (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sun May 11th, 2008 at 01:29:09 PM MST
(User Info)

If you live in an urban area anywhere, I would expect some inspectors to show up if you put up a windmill. If they aren't put up correctly, someone can get hurt.

Visit Liveleak dot com some time. People post videos of things breaking and people getting hurt. Liveleak is the successor to Ogrish.

There are pictures up that show a collapsed commercial windmill in Oregon, where licensed maintenance workers died. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0bd_1188163619

also see http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=648_1205444325

this one caught fire: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eb4_1204940722



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