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Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting
By HerronMills, Section Hydro Posted on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:52:47 PM MST
Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting

Today is my first day on this website.
I was a little disappointed in the responses to the story posted by Soapman.
Firstly, thanks to Bill for posting.
Secondly, just because I am not a member of your discussion group, it should not be discarded. This is a very important issue that we are having, and should be addressed by all members that wish to produce Hydro and sell back to the grid. We must all keep an open mind on all issues that come up whether it is on this group or not. RIGHT?
Anyways, enough ranting...Here is our story.
My wife and I purchased a beautiful piece of property just outside of Lanark Ontario. In a ghost town call HERRON MILLS. The history of this town can be found on the internet for your reading pleasure. This town was a striving hub back 150 years ago with 40 people living here, working at the Grist and Lumber mills. The equipment in the mills was powered by the River.
Our idea is to restore the mills and produce hydro to sell back to the grid as well as develop a Green subdivision (16 homes) that will be powered by the turbine in the mill.
We have gone through all of the required steps for hydro generation and it was a long and painful experience for us (2 years.) But we have been able to establish that we do own the water rights and have the right to dam the river and produce hydro.
The current issue is that we require an Environmental Assessment to be completed before funding is available from banking institutions (up to 100K.) There is no money/grants out there for a PRIVATE individual on privately owned land that wishes to produce hydro to sell back to the grid unless it is community based.
Our station will produce 1mW of power per year (confirmed) and will power up to 800 homes. It will also show revenues of $ 100K/year on average. To date we are unable to find that person or lending institution that will lend money to us for the Environmental Assessment. In some countries this is not an issue and is actually promoted but not in Canada that I know of.
I believe that this is a big issue for individuals that see potential and have a long term goal. This needs to be fixed.
That is what Soapman was trying to relay to this discussion group. Again thanks
Thank you
Ed Weaver

By posting your query directly yourself [and responding promptly to dialog] you will ensure that you get the best help we can offer.
It also means open discussion here, rather than in private which is the point of this forum. It allows future readers to harvest the information that otherwise would be locked up in your inbox.
The board does not exist to help commercial ventures,[paid consultants exist for that specific purpose]. It exists to help DIY types to make their electricity from scratch.
Welcome to the board. TomW

Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:00:00 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed, and welcome!

"first day". Everybody had one.
"a little disappointed". Everybody had some of those too.

That "produce enough energy for 30 or so houses" part? Wow. I certainly never had one of those days.

"if anyone can help her, they'll be on here." Yes. No doubt.

What TomW said...
IE:
Someone in an email says "use an Ametek". We know that is wrong, but we don't know someone told you to use an Ametek.
Someone in an email says "use a DC PM Dayton". Etc.

and TomW said "responding promptly".
People show up, ask questions, and never come back.
The best answers come if you check back super often.
Most people won't bother to dial 613-2 .... 4.

G-

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by HerronMills (herronmills@aol.com) on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 03:30:10 PM MST
(User Info) www.foghorn.ca/herronmills

Thanks "G"

Understood

Ed

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:19:20 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed
That environmental assessment may be the killer.Sorry to say but if your country operates like ours may be many more years.

Best of luck and welcome aboard.

Mark

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 06:34:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Hello Ed Weaver,

Mw continuously is 1,000,000 * 365 * 24 = 8.76e9whr or
,760Mwhr produced in a year.

For 800 homes, that is 8760Mwhr / 800 = 11Mwhr/yr or 0.9Mwhr/month.
A green home can live with this, might be a problem with AC in the summer.

Since there was an existing mill (dam to?) should make the study much simpler, like anything else check with the gov, see if their interested in helping with the green power. Or shop around for someone or group to do it for less.

Consider going to the press say gov is all talk and no action, gov gives lip service to wanting green, when its offered its not supported, stopped by bureaucratic games.

Or build it small powering your needs without connecting to the grid.
No study would be needed?

Have fun,
Scott.

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wpowokal on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 06:54:43 PM MST
(User Info)

Ed you say your turbine will produce 1 milli watt (mW) per year, I hope you mean mega watt (MW), not trying to be picky, just if you are filling in offical papers you would need to get it right.

I know nothing of laws in your country but I suspet a partner agreement with an established generating company would be the way to go.

If you are planning only one turbine how are you going to supply power during turbine and associated equipment down time. You would need to show that you will be a reliable supplier of green energy.

Assuming the Canadian government has an enviromemtal minister, contact their office, offer to show them your site & plans if you can get someone at that level on side it will make the word of difference. If anybody can point you in the right direction they should be able too.

I don't know the exchange rates to Australian dollars but 100K does not sound much for a dam, turbine and associated infastructure. Powering 800 homes requires a large generator, in the absence of specific figures, to me your's don't add up.

It sounds like a rewarding project but if you can't fund an enviromental study (could you get a university interested) how are you going to complete a 16 house subdivision.

allan down under
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by HerronMills (herronmills@aol.com) on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 05:45:51 AM MST
(User Info) www.foghorn.ca/herronmills

Allan,

You are correct it is a Mega Watt...it has been determined that we will produce 920,967 Kilowatt hours. In Ontario, we can sell back to the grid at .11cents/Kw.

I have been in contact will the enviromenetal minister directly and received letters stating "way to go"...bla bla but no real interest.

The funding for a subdivision is a lot easier...I have currently shifted my plans and have started the steps to develop the subdivision. We should have an approved draft plan in about a year, then we will be able to fund the Hydro Generation ourselves.

It just BUGS me that there is a income coming in each year forever (we hope) and that the lending institutions are far behind everyone on this. It would be easier to get money for a Resturant business than this.

To the group..thanks for your comments, I will check this site each morning and evening.

Ed

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wpowokal on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 06:08:24 AM MST
(User Info)

Ed so your subdivision will be grid supply not a green enclave, makes it easier for you.

I understand your frustration, little people are always scared of anything outside the norm, they don't have a box to tick for hydro power.

Keep chipping away you will get there, any photos of this site?

regards
Allan down under
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.
[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by HerronMills (herronmills@aol.com) on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 03:27:42 PM MST
(User Info) www.foghorn.ca/herronmills

Allan, We are still on dial up here..This summer maybe not...got my fingers crossed.

So, having said that, if you go to the following link there should be some pics of what we are up too.

www.foghorn.ca/herronmills

I am hoping that power from the Mill will supply hydro to the subdivision 80% of the time and grid supplied 20% of the time...not sure if this is possible. As well as offering wind and solar to the homes as well.

thanks,

Ed

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by BigBreaker on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 06:59:23 AM MST
(User Info)

You already have the grid on your property. Stay on-grid at the beginning, perhaps paying extra for green power. The Ontario grid is pretty green as it is from all the large scale hydro up there. Sell the housing plots (or the houses) promising to develop the local hydro within a year or so. Use the money from selling the plots to pay the $100k for the environmental assessment and get your own hydro going.

Depending on the type of dam and how you intend to run the turbine, you may seriously effect the river system. It isn't a joke at all. This is a commercial class generation facility and you'll need to play by some important rules. There are limits to be established on your ability to store and release water behind the dam for load matching (perhaps less important on-grid). There are also seasonal patterns that you may be required to follow. The height of the dam will determine the area flooded, etc... Your environmentally conscious clients may actually be somewhat unnerved to see how much impact a large dam can have. Don't blow this off - it's important.

It IS neat to be able to see the turbine spin just around the block from your house, but being grid connected... it doesn't matter that much where the dam is, as long as the clients pay for green power somewhere. There is also a supply benefit that you disconnect from the grid if it went down, rates changed or limitations enforced. It's nice to control your own generation for security.

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by thirteen on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:48:16 PM MST
(User Info)

In construction (buildings and roads)there is an enviromental study required before the land can be changed or altered. Maybe contact a large construction company for some ideas on where to go that might help. A collage with degrees in Enviromentel Recliamation might help because some student would need a (sp) theasis that needs to be done. When you succeed and you will it will be a feather in your cap and in your own personal future and in your country's global help in our fighting aginest the global warming. Just some ideas

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by ZooT on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 01:25:45 AM MST
(User Info)

Green or not....it's still a private venture, and should be privately financed.....if it's publicly financed via taxpayer dollars.....then it should be publicly owned......

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 04:50:17 PM MST
(User Info)

The current issue is that we require an Environmental Assessment to be completed before funding is available from banking institutions (up to 100K.)

Do you plan just to restore the original mill - at least the part that converts water to mechanical power - or do you plan to replace it with something different?

Is there an old millpond that's silted up and needs to be cleaned out, or is this site on a river?

Is the old mill broken down so fish can pass through it?

= = = =

Since there's already a mill there, with existing waterway modifications to power it, you won't be doing major alterations to the waterway to set it running again. That should greatly reduce the environmental impact - and the cost of the study - compared to a from-scratch instalation.

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 05:20:15 PM MST
(User Info)

ULR heres what i found.
http://www.foghorn.ca/herronmills/?q=node/4

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by HerronMills (herronmills@aol.com) on Thu Apr 10th, 2008 at 05:15:18 AM MST
(User Info) www.foghorn.ca/herronmills

Our plan is to restore the mills...the first original one only has a foundation and a turbine in it (size 30 X 40) and sits on the bank of the Clyde river. Our thoughts are to use that one for the fish ladder.

On the other side of the river is the large Lumber and Grist mill (50 X 150') with a 12' X 50' opening for the water. Our plan is to use the orginal footprint. Concepts of the new mill can be found on our website. All of the orginal equipment from the mills still exists in the mills and will have to be removed but will make for a nice Museum once completed.

The water is redirected off the river and channeled into the mill and then back into the river..yes it will have to be redefined and cleaned out.

The mill pond will be the river itself...we can flood river back 600' and will have 12' of head at the dam. The dam itself will be roughly 60 feet wide but including the mill and shoreline we will have 120 of water 12 feet high.

I agree that this should be alot more easier on the EA process...more so doing modification to existing structure versus from Scratch but quotes are not showing that. Concidering we own the 600' of river that will be flooded, both sides of the river where the dam is and 1500' of river on both side down river.

Ed

[ Parent ]

Re: Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by jeffbirkle on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:02:51 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Ed.
I've been busy designing Wind and Water Turbines, so i haven't come across your post till now.
Looks like we are in the same boat!
I've been looking for a smaller site (10 to 60kw) to do the same thing. Just 2 hours south west of you, in-near Flinton ONT. There is an old dam in Flinton on the Skootamatta river.
The Quinte Conservation Authority owns around 20 existing dams in south-central ONT including the Flinton site. They are building new power stations at some of these sites. You can look up their web site.
My neighbour in Flinton, who works at the power stations for Hydro Generation in Campbellford says, that the Ont Government wants to increase Hydro electric by 150 plants!
How do we get the ball rolling??????
I'll keep in touch.
Good luck.
Jeff

[ Parent ]

Hydro Electric Dam Stalled Posting | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

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