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Norway island stores wind power for still days
By phil b, Section Rants & Opinion Posted on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 05:11:36 PM MST
hydrogen storage for your dump load?

Here's the entire article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/norwayenergyalternativehydrowindtourism;_ylt=Ai8gSBHSg_Vp6id34o2hhZ4DW7o F
Bits of the article:
UTSIRA, Norway (AFP) - How to keep the lights on when all is still and the local windmill won't budge? A small Norwegian island testing a way to store wind-generated energy for calm days may have found the answer.
Surplus wind-generated energy is passed through water and, using electrolysis, the hydrogen atoms are separated from the oxygen atoms that make up water molecules.
The hydrogen is then compressed and stored in a container that can hold enough hydrogen gas to cover the energy needs of the 10 households for two windless days.

Norway island stores wind power for still days | 30 comments (30 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by phil b (philb7369at-no-more spam-yahoo.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 11:36:22 AM MST
(User Info)

hydrogen storage for your dump load?
I think not for mine. This is the stuff I prefer to leave for the big boys to do. Mine would probable go boom in the night.

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 02:51:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Curious, feel the same about propane tanks?

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jonas302 on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM MST
(User Info)

wouldn't catch me compressing propane at home (:

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by zap (bell47g5a at comcast dot net) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 08:38:01 PM MST
(User Info)

Even though you compress methane nearly every day of your life! <grin>

zap
[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Capt Slog (Capt.Slog(at this)gmail.com) on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 02:07:18 AM MST
(User Info)

Hydrogen is a very different stuff to work with than propane, it has some nasty little habits.

Such as (but not limited to)....... burning with a flame you can't see, being able to ignite itself due to the static it can create whilst escaping, and igniting in contact with catalysts.

.
"Slowly changing the world, one watt at a time!"
[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by BigBreaker on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 07:39:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Don't forget metal embrittlement. The containers derate from just storing the stuff.

Personally I think vanadium redox batteries would be better on that scale.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 10:25:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Using steel wool for the flame to spread out with will make the flame a bit easier to see. Closing off air vents on BBQ completely helps ask the H2 to go burn under hot dogs instead of wrong place / wrong time.

Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Simen on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 03:33:13 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.mwlmf.net

Interesting...

I've already been playing around with electrolysis of water with the help of an pwm... (And yes, i still have my eyebrows and beard... :D )Wonder what the simplest way to collect and store the hydrogen would be...

Maybe a tank with vacuum initially?

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by clflyguy (sidney.raiford@gmail.com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 08:45:45 PM MST
(User Info)

Simen, how about just using an LP tank that was all but empty to purge the line,
then compress the hydrogen and send back up the same line to tank? No oxygen
contamination.. Both burnable fuels. Is your pwm producing better than brute force
electrolysis?

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Simen on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 01:01:04 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.mwlmf.net

An LP tank would work; just have to find a compressor that is safe to use with the gas.

Simple electrolysis of water doesn't only produce Hydrogen, but also Oxygen; HHO, also called Browns Gas...

And using the pwm...
I haven't had any better result with the pwm yet. The theory is to find the 'sweet-spot' by means of the right frequency and pulses, where the Hydrogen and oxygen atoms separate more easily, and thus avoid using any catalyst in the water. (Like in the movie: Chain Reaction. ;) ) There are several examples on Yourtube which claims to have made this work... :?

I've built the pwm for this purpose presented on this site: http://www.h2earth.org/main.htm
Though, they're starting to throw the word 'Overunity' around there, so i'm a bit skeptical... ;)

Just remember that HHO gas are very volatile; do not play with it indoors... ;)

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 10:22:40 AM MST
(User Info)

clflyguy; et al;
LP and H2 don't like playing together in a compressed state :-)
once empty, the LP tanks shuld be left wide open, take valve off if you can, for several days. Even when pressure is too low to read there's usually still some left. Leave it in the sun covered with black tarp, the pressure inside will show back up.
Dry inside completely, use a vaccuum pump to evacuate the tank, then store H2. Pretty safe at 100psi.
For very low power systems , mylar ballons can be used, weather ballons if you're making a bunch :-)

As others have said following safety rules keeps eye brows and hearing intact:-)

Cheers
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:13:49 PM MST
(User Info)

I've considered this as a possible option in the future. My current "vaporware" calls for a large propane tank (a safe distance from the house) that is initially filled with water, then H2 is added to the top until the water is all gone.

I bought a barbeque recently (when the power went out for two days) and I paid a little extra for a model that already had an adjustable air-mix to swap between propane and natural gas (methane). On the methane setting, it will burn a little lean when using H2, but since it doesn't have any carbon in it (methane is C1-H4), no pisonous carbon monoxide will be produced.

(I'm also a fan of using waste vegetable oil (WVO) in a back-up diesel-generator, but I have saved links for adapting a propane regulator onto a gasoline generator which can be adjusted to run on H2, I guess we'll see...)

Anyone out there with actual experience using Pure H2 as cooking fuel?

"Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan" -Marcus Aurelius

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by finnsawyer on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 08:21:37 AM MST
(User Info)

I've been told that the way they pressure test LP tanks and the like is to fill the tank with water and then run up the pressure. If the tank fails, it ruptures and the pressure falls instantly to zero. No destructive and dangerous explosion. Just thought I'd pass that on. Not responsible for unintended consequences, though.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 11:15:27 AM MST
(User Info)

I've used the stuff a time or two ;+)
Did the cute little #2 pencil graphite trick, used rechargable NiCds for low voltage high current electrolysis.
Used a glass beeker that had two openings. one for Oxy other for H2. Ran clear plastic tubing from Oxy to in-house plants down at root level.
Ran plastic tubing from H2 side to mylar balloons that had been never been used for parties. rubber banded the plastic tube to mylar and let it run , when it wanted to.
Found that by closing off ALL air vents to burner and adding 00 size steel wool would give you a visable burn and allow the H2 to spread out instead of right under or straight up as it were.

I stopped using it a while ago, Methane is much eaiser to control, store,and since its the major item in Natural gas, the jets can be used with little to no adjustments. AND the by product makes gradens very happy :_o

Hope this helps
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Tritium on Tue May 13th, 2008 at 06:34:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Years ago I saw a system that used a very heavy steel tank (old water heater with the bottom cut out) inverted in a tank of water of slightly larger diameter. The steel tank was open at the bottom and had a gas outlet at the top connected to a delivery tube (out to appliances). The tank started flooded with water and sitting at the bottom of the tank of water. As methane was produced by a digester it would bubble into the bottom flooded tank and rise to the top thus displacing the water and pressurizing the gas to a few psi. If the pressure got too high as the tank filled the tank would simply "float up" and the methane escape into the air. This would work with H2 just fine as long as the tank never floated no H2 would escape.

Thurmond

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by electrondady1 on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 06:10:08 AM MST
(User Info)

it has occurred to me that in order to compress the gas,
you simply make the cell capable of produceing the gas under pressure.
so that it is part of the pressure vessel and can be isolated/vented
with some sort of ball or gate valve.
avoiding any sort of exotic pump.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by joestue on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 09:49:34 PM MST
(User Info)

This is how hydrogen was justified to those wishing to see it used as an economy.

Electrolysis at 3000 psi is currently the idea, it's 85% efficient at reasonable cell loading.

only issue is you need to cascade gas regulators in order to keep the pressure difference across the membrane to a few psi max.

if you try to use a car battery to generate h2 o2, it's about 40%

if you want to, you could use nicd batteries at 1.5 volts across the cell, at about 60% efficiency.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Sundog on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 12:02:20 PM MST
(User Info)

Hydrogen is bugger-all hard to store.

The molecule is itty-bitty, and tends to leak through "solid" materials such as steel and aluminum like water through cheesecloth. Brown's Gas is viciously nasty stuff. Very energetic, burns very fast, and burns very hot! Don't even imagine playing with it unless you want your only remaining body hair to be on your nether regions!

One of the first applications of Oxyhydrogen (the real name for Brown's gas) was lighting by heating a chunk of chalk or lime to incandescence. That's where "limelight" comes from. Another was a torch that was used to melt "exotic" metals (platinum, titanium, etc) before the advent of arc furnaces and induction heating.

Producing oxyhydrogen in a closed, pressurized container is simply begging for an explosion to level your workshop. I've worked with it exactly 3 times. The first time it self-ignited due to static electricity. Thankfully, it wasn't under much pressure and simply made a small torch that singed my workbench and scared the poo out of me.
The second time, I produced it and used a "squirt" of it from the low-pressure vessel to run a lawn mower (crappily, I may add) for about 4 seconds. The third time the production vessel sparked internally (oops) and fire-based hilarity ensued, including but not limited to :
Profanity
Burnt hair
scorched notes (paper)
A badly abraded backside (my dad whipped my butt good!)
And a complete disinterest in it after that

I can't tell you NOT to play with the stuff. But I can tell you that you're much, much better off not playing with the stuff.

Just my $.08 worth. (experience and a very clear memory involving my dad's belt and my backside increases the value of this advice)

Shad H.

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 02:27:13 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

I agree that I would not play with it: a school chemistry teacher nearly killed all of us demonstrating how H2 will spontaneously combust on a platinum catalyst (in plain air I think, never mind pure O2).

Don't even imagine playing with it unless you want your only remaining body hair to be on your nether regions!

It does hair transplants too? B^>

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Tritium on Wed May 14th, 2008 at 02:54:37 PM MST
(User Info)

I would certainly NEVER store the 2 gases in a common area (one container) as they are a perfect mix to burn (explode). Pure hydrogen can be stored safely at low pressures (3 to 10" of water pressure) which is what most appliances that burn gas need anyway after the regulator. I would rather turn the O2 loose into the atmosphere to offset CO2 produced by other processes on my ranch. I worked with the stuff in the semiconductor industry and it simply requires knowledge of the characteristics of the gas, common sense and basic gas safety practices to avoid an accident.

Thurmond

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by bob golding (photoman290 at yahoo dot com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:28:31 AM MST
(User Info)

definatly vanadium batteries. off the shelf systems have been around for a while.have a look at vrb-ess.coms website they are selling ready to go systems. anaother problem with H2 fuel cells is a life of the membranes. 5000 hours or so i have been told.

bob golding

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by electrondady1 on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 06:30:45 AM MST
(User Info)

sorry about the beatings and stuff.
i had a small home made cell go pop back when i was about 13 years old.
very exciting !

just can't imagine these people in Norway using anything other than a real hydrogen cell that keeps the gasses separate.

there are several trillion dollars worth of oil still in the ground .
the oil companies will not give up control of our world with out a fight .
there may be casualties along the way.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by powerbuoy on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 11:04:11 AM MST
(User Info)

I have to agree with Sundog ... typical LP tanks (steel) will not hold hydrogen for very long. Hydrogen will leak right through. One will need to purchase these expensive high pressure carbon fibre wound tanks for long term storage.

As for the danger ... I am not sure if some people are not overreacting. I have been playing a bit with electrolysis, fuel cells etc. and have not experienced real danger yet. I have though had one bad experience with my gas driven lawn mover where flames were coming out of the carburator and I started running. I guess its in the eye of the beholder.

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by MattM on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 08:58:21 PM MST
(User Info)

Hydrogen is relatively tiny.

This picture from http://www.webelements.com/hydrogen/atom_sizes.html

Hydrogen is in the top left corner.
----------------------------- Go Huskers!
[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by electrondady1 on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 07:11:54 AM MST
(User Info)

i wonder if coating the inside of the steel tanks with an epoxy paint might slow down the penetration of hydrogen.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:07:27 AM MST
(User Info)

I was a parts inspector for a valve company for a while. The rotors were cast aluminum, and a small % of them leaked enough air from porosity that they were sent to another vendor that sealed them.

I have read that the H2 molecule is much smaller than air, but the process and materials of sealing tanks for H2 storage is out there somewhere. I'm assuming the inside of the tank would be the part to coat with sealant.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by joestue on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 12:42:10 PM MST
(User Info)

not significantly.

Beryllium, boron, and carbon are interesting candidates though.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by finnsawyer on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:15:23 AM MST
(User Info)

Did you notice in the lower left hand corner the little grouping of atoms leaves a nice hydrogen size hole? When you throw in quantum effects it's no wonder hydrogen can escape. Yeah, I know it's H2, but that should be shaped like a barbell and could still get through that hole.
GeoM
[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by electrondady1 on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 10:57:40 AM MST
(User Info)

i was researching what was happening on the hydrogen storage front this morning.
they still talk about metal hydride's .
now the latest seems to be carbon nano tubes.

i don't have any of those at my house.

it would be nice if the performance of the inside coating was
improved by the very nature of hydrogen to bond with other matter.
polymers contain a lot of hydrogen anyway
i wonder if we can turn that to our advantage.
as the hydrogen permeates the surface it closes up the gaps.

[ Parent ]

Re: Norway island stores wind power for still days (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by dnix71 on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:51:50 PM MST
(User Info)

You can safely store hydrogen sponged into silver or nickel. http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm

They are moving to Michigan, their home page says. Running a car on hydrogen didn't embrittle the engine, but requires a stainless steel exhaust because steam is corrosive.

Norway island stores wind power for still days | 30 comments (30 topical, 0 editorial)

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