Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products
A change of blade?


By Capt Slog, Section Wind
Posted on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:23:58 PM MST
new blades not quite upto expectations.

A month ago I fitted a set of wooden blades to my turbine, and thought that this would give me the power that the thing is capable of producing.  So far though I've been disappointed.

Just to recap...dual rotor, 12 mags on each, each magnet is N45 1 inch diameter by 3/8 inch high, air gap around 13mm, 9 coils, 60 turns each, 16swg wire. Cut in is around 275 rpm. Goes to 12v batteries via a line resistance (a few ohms, sorry, can't remember the number, but it's 5 or less)

The wooden blades I made are around 7 tsr, and 25 inches long, set of three.  It spins really easily in the lightest of breeze.  Unfortunately, it never seems to get particularly quick, even though it does get quite windy at times.  I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever get enough wind to be effective, which is a shame.

I'm wondering now about putting back PVC but also........

reducing the diameter, (so that I will get more rpm?)
Use narrower blades but put on 6 of them to give more solidity.

I realise that there will be a serious stall issue with lowering the diameter but I can adjust the line resistance to cope.  

I'm figuring it will be better to be producing 1/2 amp a lot of the time rather than nothing for most of the time because I never get to cut in.

A change of blade? | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 09:50:50 AM MST
(User Info)

Not sure what wind you have. 4ft is small for low winds.

You give no details of actual output. My suspicion is that tsr7 may not have been the best choice for such a small prop. You say that it spins easily so bearing friction may not be a big problem.

Even with the line resistance you are likely still stalled.

If you have no wind there is no cure, but if you have reasonable wind find another battery and try it at 24v. You should be clear of stall and should be able to get rid of the line resistance.

With 4ft tsr7 it should fly like crazy. Try it with the battery disconnected and cheek that it does. If so try 24v, that should let it keep it's speed up.

Flux



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 12:35:51 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry to hear this has become quite a saga.  I don't know why you chose to make a set the same size as before, which already weren't working.  Have you tried using a 24V battery?  Have you tried different resistor values (or removing them altogether?)  If you tried these and reported back, it would probably be easier to diagnose the problem.

Smaller blades catch less wind power.  That won't help.
More blades increases solidity, which slows the turbine down.  Also won't help.

If you don't have the heart to make a new set of blades, perhaps try mounting them on "extensions".  The outer diameter will increase, and the effective TSR will only go down slightly.

If I were you, I would be working toward a larger prop size - large enough to get rid of those resistors.

Steven Fahey



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:22:21 PM MST
(User Info)

"I'm figuring it will be better to be producing 1/2 amp a lot of the time rather than nothing for most of the time because I never get to cut in."

If this really is the case then you have no wind.

I suspect you are reaching cut in much too early and going into stall. I am not sure what sort of ammeter you have, but try something that will measure low current and check that it is really not reaching cut in. If you get a few mA at very low prop speed then it is cut in.

Alternatively read the ac volts on a pair of the bridge ac connections and it should rise with speed. When it starts to go constant at about 9v or so you have reached cut in. If in doubt remove the battery connection and if you are cut in and stalled the speed will shoot up.

If for some reason you are genuinely not reaching cut in then suspect useless turbulent wind or some alternator fault dragging the thing down, possibly a shorted diode.

If it doesn't get a real rant on with no battery connected then disconnect the rectifier and see if it gets away.

If you can establish the cause of trouble then it is easier to know how to fix it.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:57:43 PM MST
(User Info)

I wonder if he couldn't open the gap a 1/16" with steel washers and that would bring it out of stall and be better than wasting power with the resistors??
I saw the pictures of the blades previously and they look like they should be going really fast in a decent wind where his mill is placed on the tower.  It is confusing.
I wouldn't try smaller diameter or more blades myself.



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:12:11 AM MST
(User Info)

We need to establish that it is stall as he claims not to be cut in.

I am pretty sure it is stalled and badly so. Rather than increasing gap 1/16" I think removing one magnet rotor would more than likely be needed. That is why I suggested going for 24V.

Gap is a convenient way of tuning the cut in speed when you have it nearly right. It is safer to aim for a slightly low cut in speed so that variables in construction don't bring you above the intended figure. It is not a good idea to aim more than a bit low.

The first step is to get cut in speed right ( prop running a fair bit above intended tsr at 7mph). That puts you in the correct starting point, then if it stalls in higher winds you add line resistance. Resistance will not cure it if the cut in is too low.

Although increasing gap slightly is a safe way to start, if the gap needs to be increased much you are wasting magnet and it would be far better to reduce turns and keep the same gap.  For some reason most people will go in with far too many turns in the belief that it will give them more power and generally it does the opposite. If it is so obviously wrong they question it but I have little doubt that many are accepting a performance well below the possible because they have gone in with too many turns.

You have to get started with tsr above design so that in the low wind range you work through the peak of the prop curve. Tsr falls rapidly with load so if you start below the peak you will be doomed from the start.

In this case from the stall point of view it would stand a larger prop but if it is a good wind area the little alternator may not be able to cope with it unless the furling is very sensitive.

Going in with Hugh's 4ft prop with tsr5 would have matched this well enough. If it really is a low wind area then go bigger prop not smaller and keep 12v. For more power in better winds keep the 4ft prop and try 24v.

[ Parent ]



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Capt Slog (Capt.Slog(at this)gmail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 04:57:42 AM MST
(User Info)

@SparWeb.

I'm limited to what size of blade I can get on the turbine by my location.  I'm in a very built up area with neighbours on all sides and I'm flying what I feel is safe for the site.  If I was out in the sticks with nothing around me then I'd certainly be going bigger.  I also felt that a good blade should out-perform a bad blade of the same size.

@Flux,

I know you've mentioned going to 24v before, but it would require an extensive change of everything I have set up. I will have a try with just the batteries and see what happens.  
I have tried disconnecting the mill from any load and yes it does spin up, but I've never let it get too fast, but do see a kick on the ammeter when I reconnect.

I don't think I have any shorts or bad diodes in the rectifier, it's a 6 stud set-up and seems to check out ok.  I've had a 'scope on the line from the mill (across the line resistance gives enough to see a trace) and I'm not seeing any gaps, just a continuous nnnnnnnnnn.  I have noticed that just before cut-in I do see a couple of humps on the base as some diodes start to work before others.

I could just be that there is a lot less wind than I think, the new leaves on the trees tend to exagerate what we do have, and for some time now it's been coming from the wrong direction to be really useful in my garden.

Thanks for the replies, if I've missed anything, I'll go back and reply to individual comments.

.
"Slowly changing the world, one watt at a time!"



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Flux on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 07:37:49 AM MST
(User Info)

The idea was to try 24v into a battery to find the trouble. You could then do something to get it working at 12v.

From your description of your site you bring me back to my original suspicion that the real trouble is lack of wind.

Urban sites just don't have any wind, plenty of turbulence to blow things over and rustle trees but with little usable power.

The best chance on a turbulent urban site is with a prop with lower tsr and slow alternator. You may possibly do better with more coarse pitch blades even pvc if you get the angles right. The maximum output will be low but you might get something more often.

I have had surprising results in some dreadful conditions down amongst trees with something based on Hugh's 4 ft machine ( tsr5) but even these conditions are likely to be better than in an urban site. I have never tried a machine here where I live, it would never be worth the effort.

[ Parent ]



Re: A change of blade? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Hank on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:11:00 PM MST
(User Info)

I know it's a bit late for this reply but I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that you are in stall with that size prop, as other posters suggested.
Without knowing all the specifics of your PMA I made some comparisons to one I made which was similar to yours. In my case the bottom line was, that in star, it was always in stall using a prop of 8 ft. diameter. In order for it to work I had to reconfigure it to delta. In your case that won't work as I strongly suspect your PMA is much to powerful for a prop size of 4+ feet.

If you are limited by your location to that size diameter prop then you will probably need to build another PMA suitable for that size prop.

Speaking from experience,
Hank



A change of blade? | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board
· Old Otherpower Board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  156 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· Also by Capt Slog

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!