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pole inductance


By bob g, Section Mechanical
Posted on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 09:15:35 PM MST
another ? for the experts

first i will attempt to lay out the parameters

assume we are talking about a single pole of a laminated core stator
much like any other alternator such as automotive, genset etc.

the voltage drop in the stator is due (in part) to the reactance of the stator and current in the stator,, more current, higher frequency, and higher inductance of the pole coil all work to drop voltage.

so now the question

what if one were to wind two coils on the same pole, each to be seperately rectified
so they do not have circulating currents between them which would cancel each other out.

with two coils wound bifilar as per example, it would seem they would both produce power, but the effective inductance would cancel?

i can reduce the current by raising the voltage, i can reduce the frequency by turning slower, but the only way i can reduce the inductance of the coil is by reduceing turn count (which would make raising voltage impossible without increasing speed which would increase frequency)

so can a bifilar wound pole exhibit theoretically zero inductance and still produce power if the two coils are kept seperate and rectified seperately?
(on a typical 3 phase alternator we end up with 6phases of course)

if not why not?
would the leakage inductance work to cancel each coil because they are 180 apart?

bob g

pole inductance | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 09:16:03 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

My thought is that, the magnet passing the coil doesn't care which way the coil was wound, Clockwise or Counter-Clockwise. The electricity will still be produced by the "Right Hand" rule, and you will still get the Counter-Drag resistance from the power being used.
W o o f -={(



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 12:50:35 AM MST
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I thought you got it last time but apparently not.

If you cancel winding inductance you get nothing. LEAKAGE inductance is what you are worrying about and is a different animal.

Your bifilar coil if connected as two windings will produce power but will do nothing for leakage inductance, that is related to slot geometry, flux path length, flux leakage paths and armature reaction.

If you connect your bifilar windings series opposing it will be non inductive and you get nothing out ( you will at least avoid the effects of the leakage inductance with no output).

Flux



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by finnsawyer on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:09:19 AM MST
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I think what you and he are calling "leakage" inductance is really "mutual" inductance.  I suggested he Google "Mutual Inductance", but apparently he did not.  When I did, it looked like the third hit gave a decent treatment.  But obviously, I'm not going to spend researching something I already know.  I suggest further that he investigate the theory behind the ubiquitous transformer and how his coil arrangement would affect the performance of same.
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:41:14 AM MST
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finnsawyer

i understand the difference between mutual inductance and leakage inductance

but i am glad you mention it

perhaps this frames my question better

would there be a negative impact having two counter wound coils on one pole from a mutual inductance point of view?

would the induction of one coil serve to fight the other coils induction?

i guess that is basically my question.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by finnsawyer on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:18:30 AM MST
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No, and no.  If the currents in the coils ran in opposite directions then the effects of the currents on the magnetic flux would cancel.  But that can never happen, as connecting the coils in series for the currents to oppose forces the currents to zero, as you pointed out.  Any other connection would mean that the coil currents run in opposite directions, which in turn would mean they act to change the magnetic flux in the same direction, but not necessarily by the same amount.  That's tantamount to saying each coil always exhibits its own inductance.  
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:36:24 AM MST
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my apologies for asking again, i get tied up with other stuff and forget where i post stuff,, comes with age i guess.

i am not referring to leakage inductance and yes that is a different animal
and i understand the double winding would do nothing to offset the leakage inductance as it would interact between the two windings, but
would the leakage inductance be worse with counter opposing windings? than it is between two windings of the same direction?

would the leakage inductance be lower because the iron has been theoretically taken out of play with the opposing windings?

i can do little about slot geometry, flux path, flux leakage, but
armature reaction there are a few things that can be done, reduce inductance in the pole being one, adding capacitance another, adding the opposing coil per pole.

i don't want to add the two coils in series, that i can see resulting in zero inductance with zero output,
but seperately rectified can i not still get the effect of zero inductance in that pole without zeroing the output power?

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by finnsawyer on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:06:24 AM MST
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You are in error about making the inductance go away.  Inductance is an inherent property for a given coil that depends on its construction.  It never goes away.  Just because you can connect the two opposite wound coils together to give zero voltage doesn't mean they have lost their inductance.

As far as the mutual inductance is concerned reversing one of the windings has no effect on the magnitude of the mutual inductance.  Again, I recommend you study how a transformer works.  Reversing one of the windings would not change the self inductance as that is independent of current direction.  Since the output voltage and current would both change polarity relative to the input voltage and current, the sign of the mutual inductance would change, but not its magnitude.
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:24:16 AM MST
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a bifilar wound resistor has no inductance i am told

a bifilar wound iron cored inductor also has no inductance i am told as well.

yes each coil has its own inductance, but when they are wound together the effect is no inductance collectively? seperately yes, but together no?

i am not trying to get rid of the coil inductance, however i am trying to reduce the pole reactance, armature reaction

i am looking at having to rewind a stator anyway, perhaps the answer will come from just doing a test.

my hope was to get an understanding of the interaction of the two coils
carpel tunnel is no fun when it come to rewinding a stator.
but no pain, no gain i guess :)

thanks guys

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by finnsawyer on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 08:33:39 AM MST
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Your two examples involve the reaction of the 'coils' to an external voltage source.  Since the coils are wound in opposite directions the flux created by one coil opposes the flux created by the other coil, hence no measurable inductance, although each coil still has its own inductance.  In the case of the alternator the time varying flux is already there, and it will induce a voltage in each coil.  When the two coils are connected in some manner and a net current flows out, the principle of the conservation of energy kicks in.  Since power or energy is coming out of the coils an equal or greater amount of power must be supplied at the axle of the rotor.  The only way that power can be transmitted to the coils is through the magnetic flux.  The process always acts to retard the motion of the rotor whether the current is 1 milliamp or 10 amps.  I mention the milliamp current because you could conceivably connect the two coils together such that the voltages oppose each other.  In that case, due to imperfect winding you could have a small current flow in a loop through the coils.  No matter which direction that small current flows the axle must supply greater power to the rotor due to the power dissipated in the coils.  This is not a "free lunch" universe.  The energy equation must always balance.    
GeoM
[ Parent ]


Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by bob g on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 09:32:12 AM MST
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Geo:

at least as far as i am concerned, i fully understand that there is no free lunch
as a matter of fact you cannot even break even! :)

i have been at this long enough to understand the basic rules of nature/physics/ohms law/etc...

that being if i want more power output (useable), i will have to do one of two (at least) things.

  1. either input more power (mechanical), or
  2. improve the efficiency of the alternator (electrically)
what i am after is a reduction in some of the losses within the machine i am working with, and alter the way it performs its function in a much different application than it was originally designed for.

not much different than the thinking behind all the other conversions on the forum,
but not specifically targeted for windpower use.
lessons learned from the process might very well have broader application for the diy'er wind generators,, who knows until you ask and experiment.

thanks

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by finnsawyer on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 08:38:42 AM MST
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Since it's more power or shall we say more bang for your magnet dollar, I suggest you read my diary if you haven't already.  I present arguments for a single phase design that should output more power than a three phase with the same number of identical magnets.  The reason is fairly simple.  It involves more coils for the same number of magnets with a larger rotor.  Since the coils move past the magnets faster you get more voltage out per coil, which can translate into more power.  The link is:

     http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/21/16237/9933

     
GeoM
[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by tecker on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 03:52:57 AM MST
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 I think your looking at the action of a bifilar series connection where scalar repulsion between the conductors blocks induction .Looking at it as a load from one coil to the next may help .If you were to rectify the coils of a bifilar individually they would make voltage and current fine to a point just like biflar windings can be used to increase current and easy of winding and staying in the desired bending radius.



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:27:09 AM MST
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Hi BobG,

I asked questions about the issue of inductance and learned that it's much more complicated than I previously thought:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/7/4/425/44513

I obviously wasn't asking about the same thing, but the response was so informative, that I keep that thread printed out and in a binder with other "useful thoughts" that I've picked up along the way.  

If you were to draw out a diagram of one phase of, say, a 4-pole stator, you would have a pattern like a four-leaf clover.  If you wound a phase with two separate lengths of wire, one going clockwise, the other counter-clockwise, then all that would achieve is current flowing clockwise in one, and counter-clockwise in the other.  The reversal of the winding direction and the reversal of the current direction makes two negatives multiply, leaving you with the same positive result.

Anyway, The field lines must be viewed as a complete "circuit", and trying to isolate one coil and the field through it gives nonsense answers.  This isn't always what's dominating in iron-cored generators, there's the interaction between the rotor and stator, eddy currents, hysteresis; I still can't list them all.

Steven Fahey



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:02:25 AM MST
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ok, guys thanks for trying to help :)

lot of good answers, some close to what i am trying to ask, others while
informative are not quite what i am looking for.

yes i understand that we have all sorts of stuff going on
IR losses, iron losses, hysterisis, eddy currents, at least 5 different forms of reactances, armature reaction, leakage inductance, slot leakage, and all sorts of other things.

some designs are dominated by part of the above list, some others dominated by others.

after reading some of the responses

how about this example

a single pole standing on the page vertically, lets make it a nail in a board

onto this nail we wind a coil clockwise and bring its leads out to the left of the page

then we wind another coil counterclockwise (equal turns) and bring its leads out the right side of the page.

there will be no interconnection of the coils

we now pass a magnet rotor over the nail head,

we get induction into both coils, as the magnets pass we get a positive pulse in one coil and a negative in the other when the north magnet pole goes over and the opposing effect when the south magnet goes over.

so far so good.

now we apply loading to both coils, seperate but equal loading.

the current flowing through the coils will affect the flux at the airgap
armature reaction, and will increase with current in the coil, but

with opposing coils the back induction that rises with current is offset by the opposing coils so therefore there is no armature reaction (in theory)

the question that remains is

would the back induction of one coil try to fight and reduce the output of the other coil and visa versa?

(i gotta learn how to make a sketch and post it)

the reason i ask is based on the fact that some alternators (large ones) use a second winding afixed to the top of the pole pieces that is shorted or shunted like a shaded pole in order to reduce the armature reaction, and
i am working on trying to figure a way of reducing pole reactance, and reducing pole inductance if possible is a step in this direction.

anyway sorry if i try your patience guys
i have only spent about the last year (intensively) studying alternator design
devoteing about 2 hours per day on average to reading everything i can find on the subject.
perhaps in a couple years i will know a bit more, but i suspect i will only have more complex questions.

bob g



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Flux on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 10:13:29 AM MST
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I can't see what difference it makes whether you take the output from one coil or two. The same load will have the same armature reaction.

It makes a difference if you connect it 3 phase or 6 phase if you rectify it but that is a peculiarity of the rectifier.

The damping cage of a single phase machine primarily prevents the pulsating mmf penetrating the field circuit. For polyphase windings it damps pole swing in paralleled machines and also provides a means of starting synchronous motors.

Not sure what you are trying to do, it must surely be with iron poled machines with small air gaps. Most of these snags vanish with neo with effectively very large air gaps and high coercivity.

Winding 2 coils per pole is not going to solve anything and mutual inductance is a complete red herring.

Flux




Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 10:21:58 AM MST
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Flux:

so from your comments i am to believe that the mutual inductance of two opposite
wound coils on a single pole will have not adverse effects on the voltage of either coil?

if so, that is the answer to my question :)

yes i am working with a iron core machine, without neos, and tight airgap

thanks

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Flux on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 10:39:13 AM MST
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"so from your comments i am to believe that the mutual inductance of two opposite
wound coils on a single pole will have not adverse effects on the voltage of either coil?"

Basically true. The combined dual coils will be the same as drawing the same load from a single coil. With the dual coil arrangement there will be some change in the voltage of one coil if you remove the load from the other as there will almost certainly be a drop in the loading with one coil disconnected.

flux

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by bob g on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 10:48:12 AM MST
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Thank you Flux

i would expect some change in output if you drop the load from one coil
but was concerned whether the interaction of the two seperate coild magnetically
would have adverse or cancelling effect.

ok,, now i will start the rewind and see what happens

thanks again one and all

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by joestue on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 12:46:50 PM MST
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AFAIK the leakage inductance is mostly the result of the energy stored in the magnetic path, 95% of which is in the air gap.

The air gap is often a compromise between magnetizing force, tooth tip losses, windage losses and cooling requirements.
Older texts talk about this extensively, though often in confusing terms like armature reaction. (none of this is complete in any means).

Basically your desire to reduce losses is in a sense like asking how do you design a car.  Per unit losses as a function of cost is actually a sh*t ton of variables.

Lagging power factor serves to increase copper loss, so use more copper. really nothing you can do about it. Leakage inductance caused be the end connections are probably negligible, but not at 12,000 rpm, a factor of 50X what you are dealing with. so essentially 2 opposing coils are not going to have much effect.




Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by bob g on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 04:16:45 PM MST
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joestue:

respectfully :)

unless i am mistaken, which i have been on occasion :)

i have asked or at least tried to ask a specific question
and many have taken that question and made some rather broad assumptions.

for instance the 12k rpm statement, no where have i mentioned wanting to run anywhere near that,, for the record between 2500 and 3800rpm
my target efficiency peak is at 3800rpm specifically.

in the oem design of the alternator i am working with, the leakage inductance is primarily in the slots and it is by design that this is a fact. the high leakage inductance serves in this specific unit to protect the machine from burn out under extreme high current loads by dropping the voltage. but again that is the oem design
which is something i am working away from,, i don't need this max current level output so therefore i don't need the high leakage inductance protection of the oem design.

that is one factor, not necessarily the primary factor.

correct me if i am wrong, but
in an alternator with an open stator, no load connected
there is no displacement (or very little) of the flux across the airgap
as current rises in the stator the pole is magnetized by this current in the stator winding which fights and displaces the flux crossing the airgap.

now if you wind two coils around an iron core (opposing coils) and you place a
current in these two windings the net effect is no magnetization of the pole. no magnetization and you have no displacement of the flux across the airgap.
at least in theory, the result should in any event be less displacement or armature reaction.

here is the thing
a typical automotive claw pole alternator is ~50% efficient, give or take
it is built with a ton of variables and an equal amount of compromises.
because it has to be all things to all people, it has to provide power at idle
and at cruising speeds, which is a very wide bandwidth
if you pick a specific rpm that the alternator will run at, one can then redesign
to optimise the alternator for that specific rpm.
the downside of course is losses at lower and higher rpm,, but i could care the less
because i am running at a specific design rpm.

my target is to attain 75% efficiency from a particular alternator running at a specific speed doing a very specific job.
the researchers have attained 71% efficiency with the same alternator design
(lundell/clawpole) for use in automobiles, which again require a very broad rpm range and dramatically wider loading, high temperature environments etc.

they have attained 71% while still having to comprimise all sorts of stuff, things i don't have to comprimise on. (cost being one, an extra 10 bucks at the manufacture level can kill a design, where an extra 50 bucks might otherwise be acceptable to me)

so for the record, i am not trying to get something for nothing, overunity or any other bullcrap.

btw,, i have now 5 or 6 textbooks on alternator design and a couple of very good engineering texts as well.

the only issue i have not been able to resolve was the bifilar or opposing wound
stator design. i can only surmise that the reason bifilar is not mentioned is basically most alternators run at a specific speed and other things can be done to improve efficiency, or on the the otherhand alternators that are built for broadranging rpm would not benefit from such a winding.

thank you very much for you input, it is all appreciated even if it doesn't answer my specific question. sometimes an answer i get will come in handy somewhere down the road to a different question.

thanks
bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by herbnz on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 01:28:12 AM MST
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Ok my first post here lets see if I can throw more confusion into this.

Lets actually push reactance inductance etc to background for moment.
As the as the stator pole flux builts up due to the passing of the rotor magnet
an emf would be induced into both windings
as a load is connected to both a currents will try to flow.
these currents will in turn pruduce another magnetic force mmf that will oppose the mmf of the rotor (Lenz's law)
both coils will therefore combine together to oppose and reduce the rotor flux. Immportantly no flux will be produced by the currents in the coils as mmf is always going to be less than rotor mmf.
Hence no back emf or transformer effect. ( no self inductance no mutual inductance )
The output emf will be reduced however as if there was inductance by the fact both coils oppose the rotor mmf. Even to the extend that phase shift will occur due to greatest opposition as current passing though zero.
In conclusion IMHO the effect of winding coils in opposite directions and  having separate but equal loads would bethe same as wound in same direction. Dueto there only being one flux from the rotor. The mmf from the coils cannot overcome this as they cease to exist if even equal.
A very good query though and one that makes one go back to basics.

Will post now but bound to think of better way to explain as soon as i do

Herb

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Flux on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 01:37:33 AM MST
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Bob

If you want higher efficiency at a specific high speed then rewind with fewer turns of thicker wire. The less turns you have the lower the effects of armature reaction and leakage inductance.

Work the field hard and use the minimum turns to get what you want and that is the best you can do. Forget the bifilar windings but you may have to wind several wires in hand to get the wire cross section so you could connect each strand to its own rectifier just for fun, it will not be any different from paralleling the wires.

Run it at your speed ( 3800?) and try it into higher and higher voltage batteries until you find the peak power point, then divide the original turns by the ratio of optimum volts above 12. If 36v works best use 1/3 turns etc.

Good luck.
Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by bob g on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 08:41:03 AM MST
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thanks Flux:

my target voltage is 120 line to line Y connected 3 phase at ~380 hz
with the final product being AC and not DC

the slot fill with the original winding is about 75% or so, and i can go with
much smaller wire. my hope is to replace the 7 turn/pole with 21 turns per pole
which i think is doable.

with the increase in turn count i would expect higher slot leakage inductance
but am thinking that current also plays a significant role
perhaps i can triple the windings if i reduce the current by a factor of 4 or 5
with the net effect being reduced?

that i don't know for sure

this is why i was interested in bifilar
i knew all along that i was faced with a rewind of the  stator.
and while most of the machine is technically locked in by design (i am not going to recut a stator core, or fabricate a rotor, etc.) winding however is something i can make a change in.

i am now thinking that perhaps it would be interesting to wind one phase
bifilar as a test, then remove it and replace it with a standard double wound
(2 in hand) convensional winding and compare the results.

in theory the bifilar method should reduce of eliminate the back emf in the stator (under load) and provide much less armature reaction (if you wanna call it that)
whereas the standard winding under the same load would have a back emf established in the pole that bucks the flux across the gap.
(here again i may be using the wrong terminology)

anyway, thank you very much for your input
it is always appreciated

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by bob g on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 08:51:18 AM MST
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Herb:

thanks for the input

i would agree with your assertion in re to the coil once current is flowing creating an opposing magnetic field in the pole to that of the rotor pole, if
you are using a single turn coil or two coils wound in the same direction.
if however you use two coils that are wound opposite to one another
their setting up a magnetic field in the pole would cancel each other out.
with in theory no back field being generated.

what am i missing here,, it feels like i am just on the edge of understanding
what you  are stating, but can't quite grasp it yet.

you have given me something to think about :)

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by herbnz on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 10:38:44 AM MST
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Hi Bob

It certainly makes one think and get back to basics that many of us have either never studied or brushed aside. Most of the text books you refer to properly asssume basic knowledge.
The discusion here is off track in the fact its confusing self inductance where the current flowing in a coil by itself can and will produce a flux. (note flux is like current mmf is like emf )this flux cuts coil creating a back emf - opposition
Also Mutual inductance is mentioned this is where th above flux cuts another coil -transformer
Neither of the above are in a generator as the flux flowing can only come from the rotor, if mmf from any coil equals rotor mmf no flux no induced emf.
In your twin coil a mmf is set up by each coil but must both be in a common direction to oppose the one rotor mmf and resulting flux is reduced. Its not relevant that the coilsare wound in different directions currents will flow to create opposing mmf to rotor and as they can not produce a actual flux themselves self inductance is not a issue. bifolar is a means canceling self inductance . Here we have inductance yes but due to rotor flux. Its much easier to follow the theory in transformers where the flux is produced by the primary winding. Read up sometheory on transformers, I just looking though my old books most authors do avoid discussing fundementals of inductance in generators.
another term i have seen here armature reaction was originally given to DC machines its the distortion of the rotor flux due to the opposing mmf it caused the brush position to be incorrect as load increased. only effect in our generators is crowds flux to a smaller pole face in fact with air cores no real effect.
Leakage flux is when the opposing mmf makes it easier for the rotor flux to bypass the coil. All the effects tend to reduce output voltage as load comes on. Inductance of the rotor coil combination is the main cause though in our small units, we often kill the rotor flux creating the flatterning of of out put current.

Enough .......

Herb

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Flux on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 12:40:47 PM MST
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Bob
The only way a bifilar coil can cancel any inductance is if it is wound opposing, it then becomes non inductive and useless as far as generating power is concerned.

If the coils are separate it doesn't matter in the slightest which way they are wound, you have 2 windings each supplying a load, if you reverse one coil you will reverse the phase of the external emf, but each load will still contribute in opposing the rotor mmf.

Think of a transformer with 2 secondaries, if you connect them opposing you get nothing out. If you connect them in parallel and in phase and ran 2 10W bulbs you would have exactly the same thing as each secondary running a 10 watt bulb. If you wound 0ne secondary the other way the thing would still see the same load with separate windings.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Flux on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 01:47:16 PM MST
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Bob
Just a few more thoughts that might help you. The power factor of the load influences the effect of armature reaction. Leading power factor increases rotor flux, lagging pf reduces it. In theory unity pf just distorts the flux across the pole but as you will be pushing the iron anyway, part of the pole will saturate so the net effect is a reduction as with lagging pf.

If you are rectifying then the rectifier presents lagging pf. You may see marginal improvement by adding capacitors across the lines to bring pf leading. Unfortunately again saturation will prevent you seeing much improvement and the higher leading current will increase the resistive loss.

Now as you are using high voltage and high frequency I am going to offer you one ray of hope, if you use SERIES capacitors then if you can get the right value you should form a series resonant circuit with the leakage inductance and it should cancel leaving only R. I can't promise that this will work but it does in the case of a phase converter and you can raise the third leg voltage quite a bit. Normally the capacitor values are beyond reality but in your case it may not be so bad.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by joestue on Sun May 18th, 2008 at 05:03:34 PM MST
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Flux, the capacitors serve to correct the pf, and to an extent the voltage depression, at the expense of copper loss.

How much of the inductive voltage limiting has to do with efficiency is unclear to me.

Certainly for constant power output the effect is not a lot, but if you want to extract the maximum power out at the 50% efficiency point, it will certainly drop the output power away from the KVA = ~rpm^2 curve.

[ Parent ]



Re: pole inductance (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by bob g on Mon May 19th, 2008 at 05:18:26 PM MST
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thanks to all who offered their input, and advice
i guess the proof will be in the pudding so to speak

time to strip the core, and start the rewind

not sure whether the bifilar approach is worth the effort because the current levels will be so much lower than the original design anyway.

dramatic reduction in current should provide a substantial reduction in air gap leakage or flux shift anyway,, not sure if the counterwound bifilar would provide a measureable gain in efficiency even if it did work.

thanks again

bob g



pole inductance | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial)
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