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3 or 4 pattern for guy wires?


By cardamon, Section Wind
Posted on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 01:30:19 AM MST
any thought on pros and cons?

Wondering what anyone's thought are on using 3 or 4 guy anchor locations for a tower.  A few observations I have made:
  1.  Commercial towers usually a 3 pattern.
  2.  A four pattern will better support a tilt up tower side to side during erection.  With a three pattern, you would either need temporary side supports or to tighten the two often as the tower is being tilted up.
  3.  Then there is the obvious more/less material, more/less time toss up.....
Any other thoughs?  Any of you use a three pattern?
3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by cardamon on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 07:32:50 PM MST
(User Info)

Revise #3 to read, more time and more materials for 4 pattern vs. more load per guy for a three pattern.



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wpowokal on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 07:56:09 PM MST
(User Info)

You already know the reasons for using  4 anchor points, to that add if you oroentate your anchors to cradle you strongest winds you have two anchor points holding.

Once one has riased and lowered towers it becomes a no brainer.

allan down under
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by bob g on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 11:22:08 PM MST
(User Info)

no way on earth i would use a 3 or for that matter a 4 guy system
if you break one guy your tower will be pulled over by the others

personally i would go for a 5 guy system, one guy failing will not bring down the tower.

but of course it depends on if you need guys just to stabilize or if they are a structural element of the tower design.

one thing for sure, don't skimp out on materials in this area, the head your tower falls on might be your own or a loved one.

bob g



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wpowokal on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 03:58:22 AM MST
(User Info)

5 Wires would re-introduce the 3 wire raising problems, well designed towers would have several  correct size wires onto each anchor.

Why don't all areoplanes have reserve wings? same logic.

allan down under
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.
[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 08:03:03 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Its pretty simple in my mind.  For a guyed tower that does not tilt down, you need 3 guy anchors, there is not much advantage to having more than 3.

For a tilt up tower, you need 4 - again, not much advantage in having more.  You'd be crazy to try a tilt up tower with 3.



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 11:48:32 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

yes. dont use 3 guys for a tilt tower. You are asking for a worthless pile of metal on the ground and possibly serious injury or death.

The methods behind well functioning towers has been worked out by thousands before you. There are do's and dont's. understand what they are before you try to improve upon anything.

just my words of wisdom.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by cardamon on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 06:37:40 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for the good replies.  The pentagonal pattern is intersting for its redundancy. It seems that a properly designed three guy system is all that is needed, after all that is what the big boys use.  Also I dont really see it as absolute necessity to have a four pattern for a tilt up, one could use a truck or a tree as a temp for the tilt up procedure.  Seems more a matter of convenience and how often, if at all, one intends to lower and re-raise the tower.



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wdyasq on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 06:56:22 PM MST
(User Info)

4 guys for a tilt-up tower is all about control. Of you loose control of the tower you will probably loose the tower and anything else attached to it. Folks have been killed raising towers.

IF you are planing a tilt up tower you will be well advised to study the 4 guy tilt-up posts here. It would then be prudent to raise the tower by itself a couple of times before placing any hardware on the top.

I actually wonder if one should warn folks of the dangers of some of these processes or let them waste money or get themselves or others killed or injured. Letting the stupid get hurt and/or killed is called 'natural selection'.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by bob g on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 07:28:20 PM MST
(User Info)

at the risk of irritating some folks that post on here :)

the three guy system as seen on commercial applications are highly engineered and not just some scheme penciled out on the back of a napkin.

presumably one uses guys to not only stabilize a tower but place them under tension
to increase the strength of the assembly.

the mega disaster series on the discover channel illustrated what happens
when aomething bad takes place, the texas city TV/Radio tower is an example.

the guys in that case were tensioned to something on the order of 20k lbs each
and when the jib crane broke loose allowing the antennae to fall, the antennae cut
a set of guys (one leg of the 3 guy system, allowing the other two sets of guys that were under 20k lbs of tension to pulled the tower and the whole thing came down.

if your tower is strong enough to be self supporting by itself and you are useing guys just to stabilize it you will probably be ok with a 3 wire system.

however if the tower needs tensioned guys in order to be stable, and you are not an engineer, then you might seriously consider the 5 guy system.

i would think long and hard about this part of your project, bad things do happen
and when they do you will be liable for the results.

simply put if one is to err, err on the side of caution.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:37:22 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

Hi Cardamon -
'The pentagonal pattern is intersting for its redundancy.'

We all  have opinions on this stuff.  To be honest though - in my opinion ;-)  - if 1 guy breaks on a tower with 3, the tower will fall over.  If one breaks on a system with 5, I expect two more would be quick to break - the forces on the remaining two could be extreme if you think about the angles involved.  Almost all guyed towers that do not tilt have 3 guy wires of suitable size with suitable anchors and properly setup they are quite safe.   That said - other than larger foot print/more land used up and more cost, there is certainly no harm in 5 cables.

 'It seems that a properly designed three guy system is all that is needed, after all that is what the big boys use.'

Right - it also takes up less land.  

'  Also I dont really see it as absolute necessity to have a four pattern for a tilt up, one could use a truck or a tree as a temp for the tilt up procedure.  Seems more a matter of convenience and how often, if at all, one intends to lower and re-raise the tower.'

I have to agree with Ron - you'd be nuts to go with less than 4.  You can put in temps/use trucks or whatever as you describe.  It's dangerous stuff - forces involved with tilt up towers get extreme.  It needs to be done such that you're sure the guys loosen on the way down and tighten (but not too much) on the up.  You cannot tell by looking just how tight a cable is or when it's about to break.  A tilt tower should be as safe, and convenient as possible.  It should have 4 guy wires.  The side cables should slightly loosen on the way down and they should tighten back into adjustment on the way up. Anything else seems inconvenient and dangerous.  Most of the small wind turbine towers that do fail are tilt up towers - again, the forces get pretty extreme.  You can easily do the numbers and figure out what the forces 'should be' but - a bit of wind, or a slight 'bounce' on the way up or the way down can change things drasticly.  The rule of thumb as I understand it - calculate the forces involved and throw in a 500% safety factor.

You can experiment with a small wind turbine - try thinking out of the box and do strange stuff, odds are it wont work well and it will fall apart (maybe not)... and hopefully if that's the case you had fun, it's unlikely to cost a great deal or cause property damage, hurt/kill somebody etc.  That is not the case with towers.

One small bit of advice if you insist on persuing the idea of a tilt up tower with 3 cables... built a small scale model and see how it works before you build the real thing!  The positioning of the side cables on a 4 guyed tilt up tower is fairly critical, relying on temporary measures could work but it seems risky/tedious - you open up the possibility of a big mistake every time you raise and lower it.  

[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by wpowokal on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:34:50 PM MST
(User Info)

And I think he misses the point that the side cables must have a line of sight through the piviot point.
A life lived in fear is a life half lived.
[ Parent ]


Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by mbeland on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 07:38:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Brian,
One additional comment from someone who never raised a tower. From the your post, I understand you seem to think that a DIY windmill does not need to be lowered very often if ever. I suggest you change your mindset and consider that you WILL have to lower it often (minimum once a year) for testing, maintenance, adjustments, etc... Once the guy wires are set to the right length during the first raise,  I think you need to be able to do this fast and easy without having to revise the adjustments to the guy wires or think heavily about the process. It must be reliable.

Martin
Eau, soleil, le vent
[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by cardamon on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 07:14:40 PM MST
(User Info)

Martin,

Not sure if your comments were addressed to me and I know I never mentioned my plans in detail, but this tower will not be comming down by my hands except when it is time to retire it.  There will be a crows nest on top for enjoying the view and servicing the turbine. Hence the lack of concern for easy lifting and raising.
Regards.

[ Parent ]



Re: 3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 08:03:48 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

I have raised towers. Tilt ups, and stationary. With regard to the 3 guy type,... If you have a set of guys that break, you probably have caused other structural damage to the tower / turbine, before the tower falls. That is alot of force to be put on the structure to break guy wire. Especially if you designed with a 500% safety factor.

Also, guyed towers rarely fall over. They usually crumple within the guy footprint. But, thats not to say it cant happen.

Again, study up, and dont kill yourself or others, doing something stupid.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



3 or 4 pattern for guy wires? | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial)
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