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8 qt cell up an running
By tecker, Section Diaries Posted on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 12:40:11 AM MST
good workin temp arount 165 degrees

Well I happy to report the new cell is working well I don't have much data .But it's been fun to run out of gas .I made mistakes with the cookware . I went shopping with a magnet and the three piece stock pot set at Walmart was the first choice . It's too thin to do any welding or machining
live and learn there . I had ordered some Teflon washers as spacers . But haven't received them . So I went with Jb and it's holding up .to the heat . I won't go on with a mess of stuff I'll weight until after the next trip and and spend some time with the amp gage and get the concentration shutdown working (ie shutdown add water). For now I leave you with a short movie file to view .lAdmin please allow I'll take it down in a day or so ) . I was banking on the all thread . Earlier attempts showed the gases developing from exposed edges and I now think the fracture is effected at the fine edges. One piece of 24 " ¼ 20 all thread out performed the flat plates . The negative cylinder is necessary for a vehicle. Another day of tests before I tak it apart . Move the anode connection to the side and rebuild the top as well as weld up ta new frame.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1431/8_qt_cell_.avi
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/1431/8_qt_gas_test.avi

8 qt cell up an running | 30 comments (30 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by GeeMac (foxunc@telus.net) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:57:54 AM MST
(User Info)

What are you doing? Making hydrogen to run the car?

A small explanation please.
GeeMac

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 07:18:07 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Or moonshine to run the driver? B^>

I too am lost on what you're doing.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Bruce S (Bruce (no spam) Stahl <guess>gmail (no spam)) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:12:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Damon;
It's called HHO or hydrogen / brown's gas into intake for gas engines. It makes use of the on board spare power aka battery or similar PTO.
It's a well known addon for gas engines to get a much better burn in the cylinders with extra milage as well. Some have doc showing 30% increase at initial usage.

NOT normally pure H2 since it's using the cracked H2 and O to make the in-cylinder burn much more complete.
The O give the gas more oxygen for more complete burn. The hydrogen gives it a bit more fuel to burn.
NOT to be confused with the OU stuff, this has been proved and works.
JUST becareful there high enough current involved to do in someone who isn't careful.

Tecker: good to see the larger container is working out:-)
Keep us up to date. some may need a more complete write up and more pics:-)

Cheers
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jimjjnn (jimjjnn at yahoo dot com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 08:13:46 AM MST
(User Info)

It looks to me that he is making "Brown's" gas from water to help his vehicle to save fuel. I believe it will increase power as well. Not real sure tho
Jim Denver,CO
[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by tecker on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:21:45 PM MST
(User Info)

There's no doubt ist's browns gas.

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by tecker on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:20:26 PM MST
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Soops on

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 02:00:34 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Now soup I do understand the merits of!

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by HockeyGuy (Scubapro@optonline.net) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 09:40:40 AM MST
(User Info)

Great Job so far. I would love to see fuels added as a topic on this discussion board. I myself am working on a similar project. FYI, you could use a tube of 4 inch PVC capped at both ends instead of the pot. Its easy to machine. What material are you using for anodes and cathodes. Also have you tried pulsing the current using a square wave generator?
HockeyGuy===Cant feed the family without sowing the seeds

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Bruce S (Bruce (no spam) Stahl <guess>gmail (no spam)) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:53:37 AM MST
(User Info)

Tecker:
Hope you don't mind me hyjacking these :-)
HockeyGuy;
The main reason that there's fuel topic on here is due to the fact that most fuels especially HHO and other forms of fuels is that there isn't any real hard evidence that they don't use more fuel than they offer.

Ethanol: done the way the big boys do : The tests are both sided one saying better the otehr saying NO, plus the on-going news stuff that its taking food from people's mouth. ALL please don't start on this thread about it.

BIO-Diesel, Again, virgin bio-D uses oils from plants. Same type of argument. Using WVO is another story, but the objections say the Methane used is caustic and dangerous.

H2,HHO, etc. Not a pure fuel, needs energy to be gotten to.
The forum here is mostly about getting energy to be used that's already available.

HHO is a very useful as an additive and or extender.

Cheers;
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by HockeyGuy (Scubapro@optonline.net) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 01:51:36 PM MST
(User Info)

I agree that right now there is no evidence that HHO can be created for less energy than it delivers. However there is a lot of tinkering going on. There are videos on the internet and schematics for true HHO generators that are self sufficient. They are just very buggy. This board would be huge in developing these ideas because it is impossible for one person to come up with all the innovations. Many of the tinkers in this area started with wind and solar. At $3.50 a gallon, gas is much more expensive to buy then energy for the house. How about a category for fuels or maybe transportation? If you choose to add one or not, you guys still have about the best place out there for constructive help on self-sufficiency. Applause.
HockeyGuy===Cant feed the family without sowing the seeds
[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by TomW on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 04:33:36 PM MST
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HockeyGuy;

You are new here so I will explain the policy DanB has in place regarding hydrogen, fuel cells, etc.

They are only topically if you have created a device that you are using. This is a D.I.Y. board and only here for workable devices to "create your electricity from scratch". No exceptions at this point in time. Even Diaries must follow these guidelines. Just how it is.

If it is not to your liking you can always petition DanB for a reconsideration of it. Otherwise its off topic.

Just a heads up because even going on about it in comments might get you in trouble with the Nazi that oversees the topicalness of the board [me].

Just FYI

Tom

Contact: IRC

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:44:46 PM MST
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VW-drivin', schnitzel-eatin', goose-steppin', Luger-carryin', fact-point-in-outin' TomW?
Where would the world be without someone doing that.

I honestly had no idea what the thing was.
Figured a dump load powered chilli pot. :)

Glad to see it working well, whatever it is it does!
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by tecker on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:29:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Shhh Tom Hildi is looking for the snitzle

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Bruce S (Bruce (no spam) Stahl <guess>gmail (no spam)) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 07:22:07 AM MST
(User Info)

TomW;
Thanks for jumping in. Back a couple years ago '06? there was a good round of discussion and it kind of just died out.
During those posts I was pretty much new and in hind sight feel pretty much lucky I didn't get a boot for it.

Tecker's stuff is pretty interesting to me in several ways.
Mostly 'cause it's built and working , but like Ghurd says looks like the chili pot that went missing from the last chilihead competition here in St.L last year:-O
Our's placed 11th out of 87 entrants.
Tecker were you here "visiting" St.Louis last September?:-)

The use of "dump" loads to power these for say assisited hot water or a low pressure storage to cook a few hot dogs on the grill is a neat idea.

If you and Admin don't mind letting him to continue posting of these I'd very much be interested in them BUT only in the diaries area like the rules state.

I do want to state what we here all know, H2 in our current world must be made by the use of energy it's not floating around like it does on other planets.

And thanks for the extra latitude on this post.

I like eine beer mit Brotchen unt Rindwurst bitte...

Probst!!
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by HockeyGuy (Scubapro@optonline.net) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 01:22:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Tom
HockeyGuy===Cant feed the family without sowing the seeds
[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by etownlax on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 01:22:02 PM MST
(User Info)

I read you said you were going to use sodium bicarbonate(NaHCO3) and rain water.
If you use NaHCO3, it will become a basic solution in your cell. Your results will be skewed also by the CO2 and possible CO that is produced. And when thats released it will leave behind Na to react with the water creating NaOH, thus resulting in a basic solution. There's little way to get rid of the caustic solution without a PEM electrolyzer.
The Rain water I wouldn't suggest. Even though its plentiful(in some places) its not a great source of H2O. Your cell needs to be clean in order to run efficiently. Your stainless steel will also last longer if you have clean water and the right electrolyte, because in a perfect cell(pure water, pure NaOH, Best Stainless steel) everything works the way you want it to, but once you add something else it changes the whole balance and could end in a ruined cell and wasted money.
All in all I would suggest to use distilled water, good NaOH(lab supplier quality) and good 304(or better 316) Stainless steel.
Food for thought
-Randy

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 05:21:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Many people have adapted an extra alternator onto their engine to produce the electricity to split water into HHO which is then pulled into the intake manifold and used to displace some of the gasoline/air mix.

This subject pops up every time there is a spike-up in gasoline prices, and it does work, but...

Hydrogen (H2) is not as dense as gasoline (C8-H18), so if you replace half the gasoline with HHO, there will be a noticeable DROP in power. Just letting you know ahead of time...

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 03:50:40 PM MST
(User Info)

The heat from the combustion of Brown's gas is not going to improve mileage.

You're taking mechanical power, using it to generate electricity (at less than 100% efficiency), using that to split water (at less than 100% efficiency), then burning the resulting gas back to water releasing the remainder of your investment as heat - on the hot side of a heat engine limited by the carnot cycle efficiency. That last is really bad news efficiency-wise.

If this worked out you'd have a perpetual motion machine of the first kind (over-unity). Then who would need gasoline at all?

Which is not to say it's guaranteed NOT to improve mileage.

- A small admixture of hydrogen and oxygen might improve the propagation of the flame front and result in better combustion of the regular fuel.

- The generator might result in the injection of small water droplets, which convert to steam and improve the engine efficiency by better coupling the heat to pressure pushing the piston during the power cycle.

Either or both of these might end up improving the engine efficiency enough to more than offset the power spent generating electricity to generate gas.

I know that one of those (water injection) has been shown to improve the efficiency of otto-cycle engines dramatically. (The auto industry doesn't use it, much as it would like the efficiency improvement, because of the problems from requiring TWO consumable liquids to "fuel" the vehicle, and what to do when one of them runs out.)

Speaking of which: I understand one "magic carburator" that actually works pretty well is a gasoline-water-ultrasound device. It emits a fine coaxial stream of water surrounded by gasoline with ultrasound waves inside it. This breaks it into a spray of tiny, standard-sized, droplets of gasoline-coated water. When these burn they ignite like a rich mixture (because of the outer gasoline coating's increased surface area). Then the water boils, blasts the remaining unburned gasoline through the cylinder, and provides added steam pressure. Combustion completes like a lean mixture, but with the water cooling the gas below the nitrogen-fixation temperature and retarding knock. Low emissions, increase in effective octane, more complete combustion, water-injection "steam power" assist. All around-great. Until you let the water tank run dry while you still have gasoline...

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by zapmk on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 06:28:02 PM MST
(User Info)

One needs to be careful when using (hho) in all CAPS, after all it is a registered trademark.
We like to refer to it as Hydroxy on the yahoo group.

Hmm, Stainless all-thread, might need give it a shot.

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Bruce S (Bruce (no spam) Stahl <guess>gmail (no spam)) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 07:34:02 AM MST
(User Info)

zapmk;
HHO is registered? I know there a group in Africa there is HHO Africa, but didn't think it was using the all caps version. Plus the HO trains.
You are correct the hydroxy is on the Yahoo groups, there's a bio-D groups here in St. Louis that was looking into using this to help with a more complete burn , but not looking so good.
In order to use this process with Diesel engines, there's discussion of modifying the heads to install spark plugs.

NOT my idea of easy.
Cheers
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by zapmk on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 08:31:23 AM MST
(User Info)

Here you go,
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=77180550
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=77180591

Some of the Yahoo groups even Ban guys from the forums just for using the 3 letter word in caps :>0

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by Bruce S (Bruce (no spam) Stahl <guess>gmail (no spam)) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 10:21:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for the link. Not yet allowed, there seems to be an opposing claim.
BUT to be on the safe side will use hydroxy.
If they want to sue me over the use , then so be it.
Will give the new media something else to clammer about :--)
Cheers
Bruce S

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by tecker on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 10:08:38 PM MST
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It does look like a chili pot that ain't moonshine coming off nor is co2 ( where is the carbon coming from ) do the same thing by adding salt . I don't think naoh is developed the electrolyte when drained doesn't react with aluminum . The current goes from 1 amp to 15 amps after the bicarb is added to 20 amps as it heats ,runs good t 150 to 172 degrees F .The only reason I am posting these results is the possibility of powering a buch of stuff you name it ,torches , heaters , water heaters etc as well as vehicles and generators. I'll just post some results .The power figures I need more time to collect This might be a little hair brained .I 'm pretty crusty and I really don't care some do and don't some pay If I can make this work safely breakout the beans . I don't get enough wind to work with I do well with solar . Brings up the bank in a few hours and we don't drain it at night . We drive a lot and use a lot of wood in the winter the idea of on demand fuel from electrologists is very compelling .If it doesn't fit the bill in the forum it's not a big deal to me I can refrain . I'm heading out on a 500 mile work related drive tomorrow . The first 150 miles looks good the chili pot makes a good anode . The all thread cathode rolls the gas off and you can see the gas run up the side of the container I mean chili pot .I kinda like that . Needs a dryer for the gas I'm not going to use a bubbler just another vessel for a dryer and a check valve before the intake . I'll post the total fuel mileage and water used and average amperage And leave it at that . Then move on to a torch and water heater adaptations. Oh Cisco Oh poncho .

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by etownlax on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 07:52:45 PM MST
(User Info)

The carbon would come from the bicarbonate(NaHCO3). I'm still pretty sure that CO2 should come off, but maybe not if it doesn't react with aluminum. I'll see if I can test it and see whats up. I got some Stainless steel(just need to cut it at work or school). I'll turn it on for a while then check its Ph or atleast its "relitive" Ph to what it started at. So if its higher after the run that something is being changed to lower the Ph.
Good luck,
-Randy

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by zeusmorg on Thu May 8th, 2008 at 11:06:20 PM MST
(User Info)

Producing Hydrogen gas is not likely to increase fuel mileage in a vehicle,however it would have it's RE uses.

Of course, it can be used for cutting torches,replacing gas in heaters, stoves and water heaters..

It is also possible to use hydrogen production for energy storage. Generate gas w/excess electricity produced, store, then run an IC engine/genset when more power is needed.

My forays into hydrogen experiments aren't showing any advantages over other storage solutions though, the losses are too great at the DIY level.

It's still fun to experiment though.

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by tecker on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 02:23:46 AM MST
(User Info)

In setting up for the install runs that will incompass a little more than 500 miles I changed the water and seeing the electrlyte turning a little brown at the bottom after 160 miles .I think this is rust from some of the materials used in constructtion . I'll change and use new electrolyte and check again . Probably the all tread .I do think the mileage is better but have to compile a big chunck of miles useing a tank full to be sure. the other cell had a problem with heat and the aperage would run away .this one is hanging in there with the heat setting in and the amperate running steady .

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by electrondady1 on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 08:00:51 AM MST
(User Info)

tecker,
of all the very interesting and helpful /insightful posts you have done this experiment is the worst documented and explained.
(it might be the exposure to hydrogen gas)lol !

i have always been interested in utilizing hydrogen.

are you using 14volt dc from the charging system ?
or are you modifying it some how ?

can we have a look at the lid of your devise ?
does it carry the positive cathode ?

what about a second container for the water,
gravity fed to a float valve (like from a toilet)inside the electrolytic chamber to maintain a constant concentration of electrolyte?

[ Parent ]

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by phil b (philb7369at-no-more spam-yahoo.com) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 11:18:08 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi Tecker,
I just completed my cell last night. I'm going to use lye instead of backing soda.
I found it at Lowes, in the plumbing dept. 2 lbs for 7 bux.The bottle says 100% NaOH.
Also, I intend to use very fine mesh screens as a filter after a bubbler. That's an attempt to limit the water in the engine thing.

I want to get to the bottom of the hho/hydrogen thing. The increased fuel mileage could be a combination of several items.

additional moisture that turns to steam cleans the engine
hho/hydrogen increases mpg without pulling the engine down too much
a lot of things I didn't think of. (some of you might explain)

FYI, for other folks thinking of making one of these to run a small 4 cycle engine for other purposes,if it has a magnet on the flywheel, it won't work without modifying the ignition. I tried this years ago and my 5 hp briggs became shrapnel.

To Admin- I do hope you will allow us to continue to post. This is not a scam. No over unity stuff. No something for nothing. My backup generator will benifit greatly from this technology if I can get it to work. Discussing this here is far better than the yahoo discussion groups.

Keep going Tecker!

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by fungus (info@reenergy.co.uk) on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 11:30:10 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.reenergy.co.uk/

Just use 2H202 as its correct :) ..

'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.'-Albert Einstein
Fungus - www.reenergy.co.uk

Re: 8 qt cell up an running (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by zapmk on Fri May 9th, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM MST
(User Info)

tecker,

Is that a newer truck, can't really tell in the video, I think I see what I believe to be
a MAF sensor in the intake tube?

hho needs to be feed just above the throttle blades.

ECM control of the fueling also need to be addressed, O2 sensor will see more O2
in the exhaust, telling the ECM that the motor is running lean, the ECM will then
dump more fuel in.

Which will cause you to burn more fuel :>( defeating any gains you might see by using hho.

Not a problem on a older gas powered Tractor, used to turn that PTO to test the new
axial flux with, no ECM :>)

8 qt cell up an running | 30 comments (30 topical, 0 editorial)

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