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Tower: Experience on what NOT to do


By EasternColoradoDave, Section Mechanical
Posted on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 07:25:22 PM MST
Tower Design

I am an electrical engineer and probably should know better.... live and learn.

I constructed a 40 foot tower for my wind turbine using supplies from Home Depot and Lowes (first clue?).  I used schedule 40 1 inch pipe staggered inside of 1.25 inch schedule 40 pipe with couplers made from 1.5 inch schedule 40 pipe (turned on my lathes to slip over the 1.25 inch pipe).

  The 1 inch pipe I butt welded together, slipped the 1.25 inch pipe over and butt welded and then welded couplers every place either the 1 inch or 1.25 pipe joined.

   You would think that would be plenty strong.  Here is the kicker... I studied the mechanical properties of the pipe... ASTM A53A and the modulus of elasticity was over 30,000 PSI.  I added the guy wire connection points using .375 inch solid bar that I bent to form loops and welded that to the 1.5 inch couplers just below the blades and another 12 feet down.  I used 5/16 inch guy wire on the top and 3/16 guy wire on the bottom connector.  I raised the tower for the first time last Thursday and the pipe looked like a snake..... bending and bowing.

  It was at this point a neighbor (oil field roughneck) stopped by to see what I was up to. After some discussion he enlighten me... I did not use structural steel and while the mechanical data was correct I had completely misinterpreted the data.... there is a huge difference between "wall strength" and "rigidness" (flex strength).

  I am now adding 1 x 1 x .25 inch angle iron along the length of the tower pole (front and back) to increase the flex strength (Just stubborn I guess, I should have started over with the correct materials).

  My anchors and base are all made from 1200 lbs of cement each poured 12 inches thick over cages of rebar I welded together (my anchor eye bolts and the bolts for my pivot are welded to the cages). {We see 100 mph winds on occasion and 25 mph winds very frequently... almost daily). I do try to over engineer everything (drives my wife crazy) but the point is ignorance is expensive....

   It was at this point I discovered a good place to purchase structural steel: Metal Distributors in Ft. Collins, CO.  It's an hour and half from the farm but worth the drive. (Metal Distributors may be found on the web under Colorado Iron and Metal in a Google search)

   If I manage not to pull all of my hair out or jump off a cliff in frustration (difficult to do out here in the plains) the next tower should be straight forward :)

   The advice from my 11 year old daughter: "Try, Try again"

   At this point, I would have saved over $100 dollars by going with the more expensive structural steel pipe right from the get go.

Ignorance & Arrogance are quickly countered by reality. I am eating my share of humble pie today.

   

Tower: Experience on what NOT to do | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by kurt on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 04:27:17 PM MST
(User Info)

i have heard of people using 2" water pipe for 30' towers for small windmills like a 4' amatek windmill or something  but i wouldn't go any smaller diameter than that.    

http://www.reresource.org/

IRC


Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by joestue on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 06:26:58 PM MST
(User Info)

If you can get rebar cheap, 3/8th inch should work, i would weld together my own triangular radio type tower, rather than buy more angle iron to reinforce the tower.



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 04:29:31 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I think rebar is pretty scary stuff - expecially in a tower application with fatigue.  its about the lowest grade steel, it's very quick to fatigue and break.  Perhaps OK for the reinforcement inside a lattice tower, I have seen that done and time will tell how it works out (codes are pretty relaxed in Nicaragua).  But I would not build a tower from re-bar.  Just my opinion!  Stuff I have made from it often broke over time.

[ Parent ]


Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by joestue on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 05:31:13 PM MST
(User Info)

 Perhaps OK for the reinforcement inside a lattice tower

thats exactly what i meant, using the two pipes he already has, just buy a third.

place then 6-9 inches apart. Mentioned rebar because it is often free..

[ Parent ]



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by DaveW on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 07:27:15 PM MST
(User Info)

  I've been down this path myself, and the lessons learned are many.  West Texas winds can top 100 mph in the spring, and I have enough S curves, V bends, and compound complex angle material in tv towers, radio towers, and various grades of pipe to fence a good sized pasture.  (Although it would be an odd shaped patch of land.)  For any set of blades over 8 feet, I won't go less than 4 inch pipe, and prefer 6 inch thin wall. With 12 foot blades it seems to take at least 8 inch, and that is with a good guy system in place.  My rule of thumb now is if you're not spending more money and time on the tower and guys than you did on the generator it will probably come down next spring.  Gusty spring time winds are the bane of a tower system.
DaveW


Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 04:33:56 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

There are lots of opinions on this stuff.  I think you're overkill which never hurts.  SW windpower sells an 'engineered' tower kit from 2.5" pipe that is sold for their machines 10' diameter and under (thats sched. 40 pipe).  I believe that Lake Michigan Wind and sun sells a kit from 4 (maybe its 4.5" ) sched 40 pipe that's acceptable for 12' diameter machines.  SW windpower perches their 15' H500 3kW machine on 5" sched. 40.  I generally prefer larger diameter thinner walled stuff.  Anyhow - I had to chime in here because all the ones I mention are engineered and generally 'code approved' towers and quite a lot lighter than your suggestions.  I've put lots of 10' turbines ono 2.5" sched 40 with no problems.  Of course the machines must be of reasonable design and they must furl.

[ Parent ]


Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by HenryVG (headpig(at)men-are-pigs dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 08:43:42 PM MST
(User Info)

Dan:
You talk about larger diameter thin-wall piping rather than the schedule 40 pipe. What exactly is the application for this thin-wall pipe? Where would one find it? It just seems to make sense that larger diameter will be more rigid, but I'm sure you're not talking about a stovepipe kind of tubing, so I'm just wondering what is this used for?
Where I'm at, irrigation pivots are a big thing. Would this be the kind of piping you mean?



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ruddycrazy on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 02:24:55 AM MST
(User Info)

Well guy's,
           This looks like a good thread to spread my woe's last weekend without hijacking the thread. I lowered my tower to fix the tail swivel and put a new stator on and silly me didn't loosen the side guy wires. About 30 seconds after I touched the genny the tower buckled and the blades hit the deck. I did manage to fix the tower and get my genny flying again though.

 Amyway my next tower is going to be a decent one like 60' tall or higher and I'm thinking of making my own lattice tower like the triangle configuration of my current cooms tower turned wind genny tower. Now for the height I'm talking I'm thinking of making it out of 2" angle iron with 1"x1/4" flat bar for the reinforcing, the gin pole will be the same and 2/3's of the tower height. I do long term intend to mount my 10Kw motor conversion on it but for now I'll settle on a 100 S F&P motor wired up in Delta. I would like for you guys to criticise my idea if needed. Also as I read above rebar is good for anchor point reinforcing in a concrete slab but NOT on a tower structure.

Cheers Bryan



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by scorman (scorman@stny.rr.com) on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 06:37:41 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenpowertalk.org/showthread.php?t=6170

Bryan,

Amyway my next tower is going to be a decent one like 60' tall or higher and I'm thinking of making my own lattice tower like the triangle configuration of my current cooms tower turned wind genny tower. Now for the height I'm talking I'm thinking of making it out of 2" angle iron with 1"x1/4" flat bar for the reinforcing

Before you start collecting all that steel, and presuming you are still talking about a tiltup tower, do a lot of simple pencil and paper work first.

I have just finished the 14' pedestal base of my tiltover tower. W/O all the details here, it weighed about 400#s of steel and with a 14 ft temporary gin pole, it was a bear to get upright.
CAD print:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/scorman1/Foldover%20tower/towerisotilt.jpg

Calculate how much length of angle iron and cross members you will use, and get the weight per ft of each to get the total weight you are hauling up into the air ...next figure out with whatever gin pole length you use, what thickness wire you will need to stabilize it as it it raised ...I wouldn't be surprised that your proposed tower weighs >1000#s, and that a 1/2" cable is needed and would take a couple ton vehicle to get it vertical. It only requires 1/4" cable for the guys, but lifting is another story.

The reason that Rohn towers are effective, is that realtively thin wall tubing in a lattice is very rigid w/o all the weight. The Rohn 10' 45G (18inch footprint) tower section only weighs 58#s ...use that as a comparison. For pole construction, a 4inch sched 40 pipe weighs about 11#/ft which is double the Rohn lattice weight, but that is still only 660#s to lift.

Stew Corman from sunny Endicott

[ Parent ]



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by elvin1949 (elvin1949@yahoo.com) on Thu Jun 19th, 2008 at 01:00:00 PM MST
(User Info)

  Bryan
 I may be wrong so take with a bucket of salt.
I think 3/4 angle will be stronger than 1 1/4 flat for the same weight.{about the same weight} Every water pumping mill i ever saw used angle for reinforcement.

later
Elvin

[ Parent ]



Re: Tower: Experience on what NOT to do (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by EasternColoradoDave on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 02:24:39 PM MST
(User Info)

Well, after one hack of a summer I finally reinforced the tower and have it raised with the windmill on top spinning nicely.  I ended up reinforcing the pipe by seam welding 1" x 1" X 0.25" angle iron onto two sides for the length of the tower. Then I built and welded on 2 inch stand off from 6 sides of the pipe. On top of the stand offs I ran 1/2" rebar the length of the tower and then added over 330 trusses to the rebar.

  My photo collection is now posted on MySpace:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=405785125&alb umId=851463

  I will NEVER build a tower this way again!!!  However, I am stubborn and I simply could not let go of this before making it work.  My total costs exceeded the "right way" by at least 4X.

  None the less, I am a very happy camper today!

  Peace and thanks for all of the advice... you folks are terrific!



Tower: Experience on what NOT to do | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)
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