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Leaving freezer on /open
By JW1111, Section Remote Living Posted on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 at 03:39:18 PM MST
Leaving freezer on /open

If I leave a freezer door open and let it run for a few hours a day will it damage the freezer? I would like to build a foam box around it to trap the cool air that escapes. This is all run off solar to energy is not a concern. I just dont kwow what continuous use will do to my freezer. Thanks.

Leaving freezer on /open | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 at 10:02:19 AM MST
(User Info)

WHY?
would you want to keep it running and capture the cold air?

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 at 10:08:24 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

A Refrigerator / Freezer makes more Hot Air than Cold Air

W o o f -={(

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by altosack (altosack-at-yahoo-dot-com) on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 at 10:42:51 AM MST
(User Info)

Hello JW,

I'll expand a bit on what wooferhound is telling you.

A refrigerator/freezer does not create cold; it simply moves heat from one place to another, using energy to do so, some of which is wasted as heat. Therefore, the net "outflow" of the unit is heat, not cold, whether you have the door open or not.

Most freezers put their heat rejection coils on the outside of the freezer walls (not very efficient, but it's easier in a stand-alone relatively compact box, and electricity's still pretty cheap), usually in the front. If you put a box around that, you will have no joy at all because of the net outflow of heat.

As far as damaging the freezer goes, it depends. Most are designed with a maximum duty cycle in mind, but a more rugged one will be able to soldier on for quite a while full on. Since there is no reason to do this anyway (from paragraphs above), I recommend, uh, NO !

Dave

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Fri Jun 6th, 2008 at 04:39:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Kind of like taking a car door off of a car and into the hot desert with you so that you can roll down the window to keep cool. Since the fridge is only moving heat, and since it is turning electricity into heat to move it, your house will end up warmer.

Now if you have the hot coils on the back of the fridge like the old ones, and you had the fridge sticking through a hole in the side of your house with those coils outside and the door opening on the inside, and the gaps in the hole were filled, then you could probably get a bit of cooling - although a window airconditioner would probably be simpler and cheaper. Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by JW1111 on Sat Jun 7th, 2008 at 07:25:15 AM MST
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Im off the grid and do not have the 12 amps or so required to power an air conditioner. What i had in mind was to build a foam insulation box around 300 cases of wine and put the freezer in there with the hot air from the unit venting outside of the box and the cool air from inside the unit is driven out into the box with a small fan. The unit is run off a dump load and only turns on for a few hours during peak daylight to keep my wine cool. I know it is not the best but air conditioning is hard to come by when your limited for power and have to come up with something in a pinch to save losing a small fortune.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by kurt on Sat Jun 7th, 2008 at 05:51:29 PM MST
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you do not need air conditioning you need to dig a cellar for your wine. that is how wine has been kept cool for thousands of years before mechanical cooling was invented.......

http://www.reresource.org/

IRC
[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sat Jun 7th, 2008 at 06:28:01 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

So . . .
You want to cool down 300 cases of wine, with 1 refrigerator running as a dump load for about 3 hours a day ?

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by zeusmorg on Sat Jun 7th, 2008 at 06:42:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Dude, dig a hole, pop your wine in it, wine loves 55 degrees.. which in a lot of locations is close to earth temp at 12 inches or so deep..even at 60 your wine would be safe.

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by JW1111 on Sun Jun 8th, 2008 at 09:06:26 AM MST
(User Info)

I dont think a hole in the ground would pass TTB regulations for a bonded wine storage facility. They would yank my license and have me investigated. an insulated box inside an existing room that is in direct contact with the earth will stay cooler just because it is insulated. It would not take much more to maintain the 65 degrees that I would like it, particularly when some night time cooling and geothermal are used in addition. This is a temporary set up. All of your other suggestions have been considered and uh, rejected. But thanks.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Sun Jun 8th, 2008 at 10:03:16 AM MST
(User Info)

I'm not much of a Wino but if i was i would drink it has fast has i made it.No storage problems then :~)

Buy ice and put it in a well insulated shack.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Sun Jun 8th, 2008 at 04:26:40 PM MST
(User Info)

If you had bought an industrial freezer that is designed to be able to run continuously, I suppose it would last. Since you seem to be describing a fairly low-amperage draw freezer, I'm going to guess its a smaller and more affordable model.

I've never timed the duty cycle of my home feezer, but it seems to run a minute or two, then it shuts off for quite a while (as long as the door is shut). If yours is designed for a similar duty cycle, I believe you will be unhappy with how quickly it is damaged by running it for 3 hours at a time.

I don't know what building code restrictions you have to struggle against, or what resources you have available, but a wine cellar is a very good idea if you keep 300 bottles. During a power failure, the masonry walls (like in "The Cask of Amontillado) will act as a heat leveling sponge against the cool earth, until your system (or the city) can get the power back up.

If your only wine cooling is an open freezer and it fails, you will have to buy something new anyways in this summer heat. Sell the most valuable bottles and build something lasting, or "maybe" lose them all...

"There are some things that just aren't done, such as drinking Dom Perignon '53 above the temperature of 38 degrees Fahrenheit" -James Bond, "Goldfinger"

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by getterdone on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 09:06:39 PM MST
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running the freezer 24/7, the freezer [compressor] will last longer than if it cycles. fact. if the freezer is in the space that your cooling it will generate more heat to the space. heat of compression. energy it takes to run compressor.
suggestion ; you cant dig a celler, a/c units would work in a pinch, but if i am right arnt you supposed to keep wine at a constant temp? buy a lister engine, power a a/c unit off a car. or find an old open type compressor [belt drive] power the thing with used veggy oil.
300 cases of vino you have some money in. if your off grid and need cool storage with out a celler. and are serious about your stash. check into it.
see how the Amish keep things cool.
just my thoughts.
If I were smart I'd be dangerous
[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by JW1111 on Wed Jun 18th, 2008 at 07:58:57 PM MST
(User Info)

I broke down and bought an ac unit and I have no problem running it off my solar and wind, during the day. Thanks alot. Your advice has been very helpful.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by elvin1949 (elvin1949@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 12:26:16 AM MST
(User Info)

JW1111
I ain't very bright,but i get the impression you live in a place where you have to have a permit for everything.
That said i agree with Kurt.So what to do.
If it was me i would get a permit for a underground
storm shelter. Insulate it on the sides and top,also the doors.
Your wine will be happy,and the politicians will be happy.
later
Elvin

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by JW on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 08:05:13 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi All,

"If I leave a freezer door open and let it run for a few hours a day will it damage the freezer? I would like to build a foam box around it to trap the cool air that escapes. This is all run off solar to energy is not a concern. I just dont kwow what continuous use will do to my freezer. Thanks. -JW1111"

"A Refrigerator / Freezer makes more Hot Air than Cold Air -W o o f -={("

"Kind of like taking a car door off of a car and into the hot desert with you so that you can roll down the window to keep cool. -RichHagan"

I like that one Rich, :)

Ok,ok

Lets go back to the middle, shall we.

"Im off the grid and do not have the 12 amps or so required to power an air conditioner. What i had in mind was to build a foam insulation box around 300 cases of wine and put the freezer in there with the hot air from the unit venting outside of the box and the cool air from inside the unit is driven out into the box with a small fan. The unit is run off a dump load and only turns on for a few hours during peak daylight to keep my wine cool. I know it is not the best but air conditioning is hard to come by when your limited for power and have to come up with something in a pinch to save losing a small fortune. -JW1111"

Uknow, I once considered this same type of problem for brewing beer, Id like to run 4- 1/2 barrels at various stages of fermentation.

I found that sub-merging the barrels in 60*f water would do the trick. I got no problems with co2. Im sure this won't work for you, as the labels will most likely disintrigrate :).

But I think you nailed it on head JW1111 (your not signing your posts so this is all I have to go on).

"Im off the grid and do not have the 12 amps or so required to power an air conditioner. -JW1111"

Im assuming there is some other reason you dont want to control humidity. Is this 12amps 120vac? whats the difference between that type of AC load and a fridge?

You could always stick a 55gallon drum (or two, or more) filled with water, in the insulated room, and that would most likely work better that the open/fridge idea. No matter how to cooled the water in the drums, you would have way more cooling capacity during periods of low power.

I have not done the calculations on how much btu capacity in tonns can be stored in two or more 55 gallon drums cooled to 40*f, but im sure its enough to out balence all the wine that your storing. If you get the wine 'AND' the water filled drums at the same temp in the insulated room, you could probably keep things under-control for like a week, providing the insulation in the room had a good enough R-factor.

Oh, and, you dont want too, go back and forth into the room opening and closing the door every day. Perhaps a remotly located therometer with the sensor in the room might be a good suggestion.

Somehow this reminds me of opening and closing the fridge door to check to see if the light go's out, when the door closes. :)

Come to thing about it, better unscrew that lightbulb in the frige that your leaving the door open on. :)

But to answer your question, no, it probably would not hurt the fridge that bad.

JW/Jeremy :) :) :) :)

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by JW on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 09:14:59 PM MST
(User Info)

One other thing,

I casually mentioned R-factor/value for such an insulated room. My best guess is that one would have to use polyurethane foam with about an 8inch thickness. This can be easily spray'd on any surface, although such an application would require the use of 'scuba' breathing apparatus for anyone applying such an insulation within a confined space. The use of an aluminum-foil vapor-barrier on the outside is optional. As the layering process of 2-inch thich coats were applied on the inside of such a room, by the time you got to the last layer at 8in thick(after expansion of the foam), I would throw some 5/8inch thick 4ft by 8ft plywood sheets on the floor. this should be more than adequate to support floor loads of the weight of the wine, and cooling reservoirs, should all this be on a concrete foundation.

Furthermore the arrangment with the door(s) is the problem of the designer.

Its not unheard-of for wine collections to be of substantial value...

"I know it is not the best but air conditioning is hard to come by when your limited for power and have to come up with something in a pinch to save losing a small fortune. -JW1111"

May I suggest an 8kw gas/diesel gen-set to cool things down, using a huge AC wall-unit (air conditioner)running off-of 220vac. Actually, if you threw some dry bails of hay in there, you could most likely control humidity pretty easily using the wall unit.

Quite-frankly its a big job to get the (cooling)storage capacity your looking for, let alone whats possible with the small load capacity that you propose, but, it could be possible, if you have a good enough R-factor and you were just maintaining temp once the whole thing was already cooled down.

JW

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by JW on Mon Jun 9th, 2008 at 10:23:31 PM MST
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I've put some futher thought into this, with regards to the fridge's cooling capacity. Atleast to maintain 55*f in an insulated room, and this # falls out of spec. I think 67*f is a more reasonable (#)number. But this depends on ambient temps around storage. Im figuring 90*f.

This is related to the 300 cases of wine.

"What i had in mind was to build a foam insulation box around 300 cases of wine and put the freezer in there with the hot air from the unit venting outside of the box and the cool air from inside the unit is driven out into the box with a small fan.
-JW1111"

What temp do you actually need to maintain the wine at JW1111? It does make a huge difference in relation to the hottest you expect to encounter with relation to ambient temps.

"What i had in mind was -and put the freezer in there -with the hot air from the unit venting outside of the box -JW1111"

Yes this is obvious, not only would you have to break the system open, you'd have to lengthen the connection pipes to the condencer(the hot part of the system). So that the condencer of the fridge was outside the insulated zone.

"and the cool air from inside the unit is driven out into the box with a small fan.- JW1111"

The evaporator(cold part of the system) would most likely need some heatsinks welded to it, with a gtaw(tig) welder while you had the system discharged(most likely the evaporator is aluminum). But the idea of a fan re-circulating air over the modified evaporator, within the insulated room is okay.(obviously)

Providing you calculate the extra refrigerent needed, and not over-charge the system, you would be very close. Im guessing your using 134a.

However, if the system was never opened, you could not mount the heatsink to the evaporator, so you'd have less cooling surface area for your fan to pass air across.

Again, its very close. Depends on ambient temps and the temp you expect to maintain.

I see no problem with the wall unit, if its on re-circulating cooling mode for the cooling air, to chill things down, before your fridge idea is put on line. But you may find you need more cooling capacity than such a converted fridge can provide. Maybe not, but you will need the larger cooling capacity AC wall unit, to get things within a range that you can even find out.

One things for sure, the insulation will be the best money spent if you go thru all the trouble. You may have to go back and forth some, to get what you need out of the refridgeration systems.

All things considered, its going to be one hell of a project to get right.

JW

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by TomW on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 08:05:08 AM MST
(User Info)

It is very common here for produce growers to build a super insulated room with an airlock entry then run 2 or 3 window air conditioners to pull it down to a steady cold temp. Like a poor mans DIY walk in cooler.

No clue on costs to run but dead simple and easy. You can buy window AC units lots of places at least here.

Personally, if I needed cold storage in volume thats what I would do. Research efficient AC units. Size the room to the needs and have all space filled with thermal mass like tubs of water your wine, whatever.

A smart guy could probably make that work well at least after the initial marathon run chilling it all the first pass.

The last AC window unit I bought was only $75 or something so thats lots cheaper than wearing out the freezer.

Just my theory.

I have other ideas, too but anyone with enough wine to be "valuable" should quit being cheap about protecting it and bite the bullet, cough up some cash and get it done. Or not.

Tom

Contact: IRC

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by JW1111 on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 06:19:30 PM MST
(User Info)

My existing cellar is well insulated and cooled with well water through the floor. I can keep it about 15 cooler than the outside temp. So in 90 df heat I can keep it 75. But I dont like to run my Surflo pump that often because it wears it out. And I would like to keep my wine around 65 df. I normally through a blanket over my cases and they stay cooler than the ambient temp inside the cellar. I thought about building the foam walls around the cases to help cool them a bit more. A room inside a room. My freezer idea will be introduced this week as a little boost. I will leave the door cracked and put a small fan in there and turn the unit on during the hottest and sunniest times of the day, when I have the most power. I think it will help a little. I am also going to look at ac units and see how many amps they require after inverting 24vdc. Ultimately I would like the whole cellar completly climate controlled with green power. .Thanks.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by zeusmorg on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 at 09:38:07 PM MST
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if the freezer is just sitting in the cellar it won't, you'll just heat it up. If there's no venting of the heat off the coils, all you'll do is burn up excess electricity and heat up the cellar.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by joestue on Wed Jun 11th, 2008 at 06:31:14 PM MST
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some times I really wonder if some of you have even the slightest experience in this matter.

We have altosack's comment that duty cycle will somehow dammage the fridge. Next is spinningmagnets' comment that refridgerators are not capable of running continously, but industrial units are.

most of you all commented that the idea is stupid, because you assumed the user is actually going to open the door, and let it sit there...

A few things here...
Where I work, we have approximately 200 dehumidifiers, most were bought in the 90's, and aside from the ones that don't work, the rest have been running 24/7/365 since they were plugged in. about 50% of them do not work, but appear to function as if there is no freon in them, a bunch ice up, but still put out about half or so what the others do. The 100 or so that do work, still condense about 2 gallons of water a day, (when it rains outside, its a really dry environment normally), operating in an ambient temp around 75 degrees Fahrenheit. (btw they are made by whirlpool)

I should also mention the thousand or so air conditioners, most with a manufacture date of 1976-1980.
electrically they have had everything replaced, at least once, maybe 30% had a compressor replaced, these also operate 6-10 hours a day 7 days a week, 5 months out of the year.
The most reliable part is the heat/cool switch solenoid, the least is the two 1/2 hp 3 phase fan motors.

Last time I was in home depot, I calculated the COP of a few different brands of dehumidifiers from the stated pints of water per day, against the stated amperage draw. on my cellphone btw, but since it is impossible to assume the compressor operates continuously or not, the COP of 1.8-2.3 means nothing to me, but i suspect it is a little higher than that not including the temperature difference, also an unknown.

If we wish to breakdown a fridge compressor operating for say 20-30 minutes every 2 hours, as my maytag does, we can assume that the oil is 100% cycled through the system, if we assume that the compressor also reaches it's max temperature 10 minutes after it turns on, then the refrigerator is operating in continuous mode for about half the time the compressor is on.

This provides some interesting observations, first, the mechanical wear might be equally divided between static and non static conditions, this could even be planned this way, to maximize life...i dunno.
Electrically...well, who has ever seen a coil burned out, when exposed to an oxygen free environment, also, how many of you have tore apart a "burned out" compressor?

I am not in a position to do this, but I know some of you are. Go to the local recycling center, acquire a few broken refrigerators, fix one or more of them, (chances are it's no freon [leak], a clogged capillary [return to the recycling center], or the thermostat)

Benchmark the cooling performance, make it run 24/7 for a month, then do the same again...

I understand refrigerators aren't the same as heat pumps nor dehumidifiers, but those are just as easy to get as well, and would be more suted to opertion in the desired temp ranges.

one more thing, a friend of mine has a GE fridge, and it still works after 50+ years, I'll have to ask him how many or those years it was in use, but they number at least 25. A 5 minute google search found numerous reports of working antique fridges, granted a lot used sulfur dioxide....

In response to those saying this is not a good idea for insulative, cooling coil area, condenser proximity to the cold area, fridge with door open wtf, Why on earth would you want to do that type of responses...

This is not rocket science.
how much more effort does it take to destroy the shell surrounding condenser/evaporator and remove the fridge from the cooling system. if you ask me, the answer be 2 hours with some sheet metal sheers.

Use whatever you have available, but let it run for a week beforehand.

This is in no way intended to offend anybody, furthermore arguing on the internet..well you know. a photo of someone's burned out fridge is worth it's kilobytes in gold, and logbooks speak louder than what someone though they remembered.

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by JW1111 on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 08:52:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Thank you. I know the supermarkets leave their freezers open all day long in the produce section. So it does not take much of a stretch of the imagination to expand the idea a little further. Thanks again.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by elvin1949 (elvin1949@yahoo.com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 12:27:58 PM MST
(User Info)

JW1111
After more reading and a small amount of thinking.
I think i have the fix for your problem.
You already have what i suggested,so here goes.
First add about 4 more inches insulation to the walls.Second add about 6 more inches of insulation to the ceiling.
Now for the good part find an OLD upright freezer.
They last forever [new=junk}take it apart.Put the compressor and condenser outside out of the weather and in the shade.Run your lines through the wall
and use the evaporator and thermostat from a window A/C.Use a low volt fan {system volt} in the cellar.
{trying to keep system heat outside}Put a small battery bank outside next to the compressor for your dump load from main system and for power for
wine cooler.Wire it so nothing can run unless your main system is dumping.PUT A MANUAL OVER RIDE FOR
EMERGENCIES.
If you live close enough to west-central Louisiana i have a Philco-Ford 10cuft freezer you can have for free.Door gasket and thermostat bad but you won't need those anyway.

later
Elvin PS Most folk's will say i'm crazy [I-AM}
When you recharge the system propane is
a lot colder than 134a.

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by JW on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 02:09:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Elvin, I remember the R-12 phase-out. Its known that propane can be interchanged in an r12 system. I have done it myself and it does work. Actually I used a mix of 25% isobutane and 75% propane.

I also found it was slightly more efficient, however I observed this thru reduced compressor loading. A pully size change would have matched temperature as good as r12 im sure. I only charged auto a/c systems.

As one may use propane based refrigerant, there is a decreased chance of the 'freon' based corrosives, which the dryer normally provides protections for when using r12. Also I saw a couple of refridgerators charged with the propane mix, the oil viscosity had to be reduced to accomodate the alternative freon. but all the systems I observed worked ok for a pretty long time(over 3 years)

But im pretty sure propane based freon is not allowed, because of the possibilite of a leak developing in such a system charged with that. But it does infact work, interesting that you know that.

I have never tried this with a system charged with 134a.

JW

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by elvin1949 (elvin1949@yahoo.com) on Thu Jun 12th, 2008 at 10:10:55 PM MST
(User Info)

JW
The old upright freezer has r12.
So when remaking it into a walkin it has to be converted to something.
134a is easy to get and propane works better than the 134a and is easier to get.
JW don't give your age away but when is the last time you saw a Philco-Ford deep freeze.
later
Elvin

[ Parent ]

Re: Leaving freezer on /open (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by JW1111 on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:20:07 PM MST
(User Info)

"Wire it so nothing can run unless your main system is dumping" My problem here is that I have to invert, and the inverter will not run off a Xantrex charge controller, the inverter will not reset. And the lvd of the inverter is too low, 22.5v, with no way to adjust. So i have to manually turn it on and off. Which I do during peak power.

[ Parent ]

Leaving freezer on /open | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial)

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