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Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill


By CmeBREW, Section Wind
Posted on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 08:36:00 PM MST
Simple 200 Watt max Servo motor mill

Hello again friends,

   Hope you are all finding some time to work on your fun RE-energy projects.
It's been awhile since I posted anything, so I just thought I would show what I have been working on lately AND because I now consider this 6' AC Servo motor windmill complete and useful.

I had been using a 180v (1800rpm/4.5A/ 12v cut-in about 130rpm) DC motor as a windmill on a 12' high (actually 16'; 4ft in ground) treated 4x4 for numerous months.  It was almost a 7' diam. pvc prop on it. It did quite good thru the stronger winds of winter and spring.  
It would have done better though as a 6' diam. mill and thus faster rpm. (as Flux had said to me in the beginning!)
As a 6' diam prop it would do upto 150 watts I'm sure. For a cheap medium size DC motor mill, not too bad.

But recently I have replaced the DC motor mill with a 3-phase AC (brushless) Servo-motor 6' diam. mill on the same treated 4x4 pole.  It is starts up much easier and is doing better power and Watthours than the DC motor mill I had.  




Here is the 'Ratings Label' of the AC Servo motor:






Here is the BACIC 'Tilt back' Furling method I used with a couple of bungie cords. This photo is of my previous DC motor mounted. I mounted the Servo motor in it's place:




I Had tried an 8' diam. wood prop on this but it actually went slower rpm and the power produced suffered especially in the medium (say 12-20mph) and higher (say, above 20mph) winds.
I had thought that the bigger diam. would have more leverage in the lower winds (under 12mph) in order to spin up and make more consistent low power most of the time. I can see now that I was incorrect for the most part with this ASSumption I made. It actually costs you a lot of power from being made!

So now I am understanding how important it is to find the 'Power producing curve' of each particular generator. (BEST RPM range)  
Here's when I had the 8' wood blade prop on it:






Also the noise was alittle too much for me (wirling noise) in the bigger winds.
Most importantly though, Neither this Servo motor nor my previous DC motor were strong enough to hold back the 8' prop with an electrical shut-down (short the wires) when a 40mph+ gail force wind would come along sometimes at the beginning of a bad thunderstorm.  
One time I found this out and it was quite frightening to see and hear. The magnets in the motor DID hold back the 8' prop during all the 20-35mph wind gusts. But once a gail force steady gust hit it, it just "let go".  I was standing behind it watching.

Of course, Flux had warned us beginners about this many times, but I had to push the threshold and learn the hard way. Fortunetly, no harm was done. I got it under control with a 24' long aluminum extension pole and tied it down with a rope.(Talk about giroscopic forces!)
Just something for we beginners to keep in mind and seriously try to prevent.

Here is how I made the arbor for the Servo:




I bought this 'Hub bore' at Tractor Supply Co. for $9. They have many different sizes.  This one is an inch and an eighth which is the shaft size on the Servo.
I then welded the bore to the round (almost) 1/4" plate steel disc that I had cut out with my 5 amp jigsaw and 18tpi metal cutting blade. (And frequent drips of heavy weight 'Cutting oil')






Here it is done and painted.  I then epoxied a 5/16" bolt thru the tapped hole into the Servo shaft keyway groove to hold the blades on.(I actually drilled 3 bigger holes thru the plate steel to hold the wood blade hub on; not shown)

I know my welding skills are not the purdest, but I did three beads all the way around to make it strong. My wire feed welder is only 90amp but I got decent penatration.

The wood blades I made are very easy, quick, and simple:
 




I split a common pine 2x4 down the middle with my table saw and then used my Dado blades to cut-out the straight profile in stages. I actually made 12 identical blades at the same time with the same basic profile.  One side of the blade is the flat side with no profile. That part is quick.  Sanding with the finish sander takes alittle more time.

Here is the very simple blade hub I made out of 3/4" treated plywood:





I put a forth screw in each blade (not shown) to adjust the angle of the blades using small washers under each adjustment screw.

Here is a photo of the Hawt with my latest Vawt mill:




I need more time before I can post about the progression with the Vawt.
It is a LOT more difficult.  Right now it usually is only doing 2-6 Watts until a bigger wind comes along and then it can do 12-24 watts sometimes.
I did get a brief 52 Watts in a giant wind gust once with this Vawt. But I am still missing the rpm range of the alternator which also is NOT very efficient due to high resistance.  So I need more time with the Vawt.

I must say I really like the useful output of the 6' Servo mill.  It did 200 watts in a big wind yesterday.  Reducing the Prop diameter from 8' to 6' probably does TWICE the power in big winds than it use to. And my quess is 50 percent more in the medium winds. (say, 12-16mph) Low winds, probably 20 percent better.

I am sure many here have made from scratch , 6' diameter mills that are more powerful and efficient than this Servo.  I am still learning, learning, and learning to do so, hopefully in the near future.

One last thing I wanted to share.
I know I should be using what little hobby money I get to buy a Wind meter to be more accurate when I quess the MPH of winds.  But something else always seem to tempt me to purchase something else! Like the following Giant AC servo motor I just
had to get on Ebay:

 




This weighs a whopping 90lbs!  The 12v marine battery only weighs 47 lbs.  The big Servo is 3-phase 240v/ 2000rpm / 22amp.
It has only one forth ohm resistance in the coils. It is bigger than the photo shows.

I tested it with my slow, old, cheap Sears drill, and the duct tape broke when the Big Servo was at just over 12amps!
(200watts)
My guess is the 12 amps was at about 300rpm maybe alittle slower??
To my amazement, the 12v cut-in was exactly at 100rpm as I had calculated before buying it. (actually 13v)
As fellow member 97fishmt told me, just move the decimal one point to the right to get the cut-in.  For example,  240v at 2000 rpm is the same as 24.0v at 200.0 rpm.
// or; divide that by 2 and you get 12v at 100rpm.  It's always worked for him and on both my AC servos.

There is no cogging, but there is quite a bit of friction from the big bearings and the rubber seal.   I may try to use it for a 25" diam.(for more speed) by 8ft long big Vawt(for more torque).  But I'm only trying for a hundred watts.

But it would make a decent 10' diam. Hawt I think. (I might put it up later in the year if I get the courage)
It might do over 700 watts with a 24v system. (not sure yet)
Anyway, I was excited about it for the price.(Took a bath on shipping though)

Any comments and or questions about any of these projects would be greatly appreciated!!

Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 03:43:05 PM MST
(User Info)

We should have discouraged you more, right from the begining.
It's too late now.  
You have a collection of windmills.
It only gets worse.

Very nice!
G-



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by gotwind2 (ben[at]gotwind.org) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 03:59:27 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.gotwind.org/index.htm

Great work CmeBREW.
I like your work on the vawt in particular, it looks like a U.K cell phone transmiter/booster base ariel - maybe the they should be wind powered, just an idea..

Ben.

www.gotwind.org


[ Parent ]


Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by RUFUS (RFRUFUS@AOL.COM) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 04:54:02 PM MST
(User Info)

It's a hard addiction to treat, even with
counciling
but sorry to say your hopelessly
hooked, next you'll be out in the street
hustling neo's !!

Nice work old man
                   Rufus



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

Very Nice work Cmebrew !!!  About time for a coffee break wouldn't you say?   Soooo.... what's brewing for the next project? ;O)

I'm sure your at least 2 projects ahead of your self, finish one 2 to go.. 3... 4... 5 to go.   My list keeps getting bigger as well.

.
Have Fun! Windstuff Ed



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 08:07:30 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks guys-- appreciate the encouragement, and your right, I am hooked bad now!
I just wish I could get an Inheritance or something so I could get more batteries and some of those 4" square 1" thick N50's!  Maybe I could finally make an efficient alternator using 10ga giant coils.  (I better stop dreaming now)

ED:  Ha! That's funny what you said, because I am ALWAYS on a non-stop coffee break since that is what I do all day is roast coffee for the family internet coffee business! (www.cmebrew.com)
(I should probably cut down, but it's a nervous condition and it's SOOO good!)

You are right, I have so many different things and projects that I lost count.
I only lack two things now,,,,money and time.
When I can finally get more of these things two things (wishing on a star) I will be happy since I will finally be able to complete several of my big projects!!

-Thanks folks!!



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by welldog on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 10:47:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Very nice looking setup.  The blade length being shorter giving twice the power is a good thing to know about.    
One question-  On your blades,  are they the same profile up the length?  This would be a big advantage if you are going to shorten the blades to do comparasions.  Keep us updated on the progress.

Welldog


[ Parent ]



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 05:03:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Welldog.

What is important is finding the right blade length to best match the best rpm range for your particular generator.

For awhile I though longer was better because of an incorrect assumption and the faster speeed of the wood blades compared to the pvc blades fooled me for a little while. Inotherwords, the 8' wood blades evidently were about the same rpm in the lower winds than the 7' pvc blades.
But I figured it out eventually.

 Yes, the blades are the same shape (profile) all the way down since thats the way I cut them out in stages with the table say and dado blades turned at different angles.
I have more photos if you email me.

That is why it is easy to cut the blades down little by little and watch performance of the generator. Those blades are just simple blades, but they are faster than pvc, and they 'start-up' very easy and 'coast' very well in VERY low winds since the blades are wider at the tips. Of course, there are bettter, faster, more power blades to make than these, but these are so easy to make.

[ Parent ]



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by tecker on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 06:59:40 AM MST
(User Info)

These servos use dc drives to step them The drag you feel is  very dense cogging .The  DC drives interpret position and use a 240 ac to power up .



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by tecker on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 07:22:04 AM MST
(User Info)

 The tilt back is a really flexible add to the turbine the weight should be somewhat proportional to the max power out and the tail could carry adjustment weight . I've seen this before but your design using heavy motors cleared up some problems for me .I 'm going to build it into my downwind machines.

[ Parent ]


Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by tecker on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 12:17:34 PM MST
(User Info)

 The tight shaft could be a dampener on the other end .

[ Parent ]


Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 08:23:49 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Tecker.  
     That is interesting about the 'Dampener'. I really don't know that much about these type motors. I never heard of that. I know some big DC Servos have a big strong 'Brake' that is normally on until 'actuated' off with voltage.  Glad I don't have that.

You could be right, but what I am calling 'Friction' is not really as bad as it sounds. Its about the same as the friction turning my big DC motor after you get over the first big cogging.  Its not really too bad.  
But I think you must be right, I can barely feel these tiny, fast 'coggings' or little vibrations as I turn it.  
Of course, when I short the main 3 wires it is VERY hard to turn and there are 8 giant cogs per revolution. So it must be 8 poles.
Since I don't know much about these, I really didn't want to take it apart. I believe they are 'calibrated' or something like that.

Yes,I believe I will try to use it for a big Vawt first as I intended in the beginning.
I already have a big treated 6"x6" pole (16ft long) I can mount the big servo to, which will put it about 14' in the air.

As I expected, that big servo is seemingly over 8 TIMES more 'efficient' at low rpms (for what I am trying to do that is) than the alternator I made (from scratch) for the Vawt I showed in the photo above.  I had tested that (homemade) 20 pole alternator with this SAME exact old,slow Sears drill as I just tested the Big Servo motor I just got.

Into a 12v battery, because the torque was so extreme with the homemade alternator, I could only reach 25 mezzly watts with smoke starting to come out of the drill from bearing down on it so bad at a very low rpm.(guess:200rpm)  I had posted the results last fall.
 But this same drill is still working and just did well over 200Watts into a 12v battery (250-300rpm?) with the new big Servo motor I just got.

Talk about WAY more effiecient at that low rpm range!(The cut-in is the same)
I can't wait to try it with a Vawt rotor.  I may be able to break Volvos 100watt challenge even with that little vawt rotor in the photo (equavalent to about a 3.5' hawt) by mounting it to this big servo motor. (Is that cheating??)
 The 12v cut-in is the same and the rpm range looks decent. We'll soon see!

I'm sorry if I confused some for switching subjects like I did.      

-Thanks.  


[ Parent ]



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by tecker on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:24:04 AM MST
(User Info)

 Good luck with the Vawt .Start up might need a bump circuit you should be able to hit the one phase with a 1 sec pulser to actuate .That and a loose coupling at the shaft should work if the wind strong enough . Put a torque wrench on the shaft under load to match it up . I have made little progress with my Vawts this summer I'm envious  

[ Parent ]


Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by coldspot on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 at 03:09:15 PM MST
(User Info)

CmeBREW-
 Not to knock your blades but,
(I know how hard it is to try to carve a set,
I've only gotten half of one of three 5'set done in a couple of years ! )
 Check out my "Trim Blades"
"http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/3/152057/7791"
 These look about like yours and only needed a little sanding.
 AC Servo Motor, or as I call mine
"28Lb Stepper motor"
Yes, easy power with low RPM's
"http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/2/25/17110/5246"
I'd love to give more info but, I can only wish
Until I get a place to play of my own, and that is still a couple years down the road.
 I hope to keep the toys I've gotten and built until then but time will tell.
Thanks for the great post
:)
$0.02
:)



Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 at 03:35:12 PM MST
(User Info)

(wondered were you were)
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by coldspot on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 02:16:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Well,
broke up with the Girlfriend
(had a hard dealing with her
supporting her mid twenties kids,
daughter married and son still living at home)
(she is moving to Casper WY, and marring
a old boyfriend of hers,{20 years back},
a 70 year old fossil, Multi-Millions guy)
 So,
 I've been moving, myself, don't know about the shed/shop yet,
 but sounds like it will be OK to still play out there,
 {her Mothers and one of her Brothers
 place about 13 miles straight
 North of my hometown, very wind place), for now at least.
One bit of funny about the deal-
Moved from- "Hillview Ave"
To
"Hill Street"
LOL

I'm trying to keep the faith of R.E.
Thanks
:)

[ Parent ]



Simple 6 ft Servo motor mill | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial)
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