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refrigerant driven turbine ?
By petect, Section Homebrewed Electricity Posted on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 07:42:27 PM MST
wood fueled electricity

Hi to all.
I recently found an article, which started me thinking. The bottom half of the article is what caught my attention.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4232571.html
I'm hoping to get some thoughts as to whether the concept of using a heat source to vaporize a refrigerant, which drives a turbine, is condensed, and returns to the heat source, within a closed loop might be practical way of generating electrical power.
The heat source might be a storage mass surrounding an outdoor wood furnace.
The turbine might be a turbocharger, as in the article, or possibly commercial refrigeration compressor, or other salvaged components be used to drive an alternator.
The vapor might be condensed by air, or water and returned by gravity, or a small pump?
An output of 1 - 3 KVA would be very desirable. It might be useful to have the combined output of 2 or more units produce the power output I would like to achieve. The inefficiencies are likely to be horrendous, but with a large supply of free fuel, that might be o.k.
Building this system would be a combination of DIY, and buying the parts and services I can't supply. There are lots of salvage yards, refrigeration shops, and even a couple of shops that rebuild pumps, and electrical motors in the area. I don't mind spending some money, if the idea can be made to work.
Any thoughts or suggestions, including constructive criticism will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Pete

refrigerant driven turbine ? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 03:00:41 PM MST
(User Info)

Read this:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/2/4/0350/64735

As wdyasq informed me, this would be a Rankine cycle engine, like a steam engine with a working fluid different than water.

I also recall a Do-It-Yourself (DIY) "Belize Butane engine" You might Google it to get some small scale ideas.

Best of luck. -Ron in 105F SoUtah

"Most people miss opportunities because it often comes dressed in overalls, and looks suspiciously like work" -Edison

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by remember (sweetwaterwellservice@frontiernet.net) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 09:39:14 PM MST
(User Info)

This is close to what you are describing, no?

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by remember (sweetwaterwellservice@frontiernet.net) on Fri Jul 25th, 2008 at 09:53:36 PM MST
(User Info)

Oops, same article you referenced. They used a car power steering pump running "backwards" as a turbine. Got about nine percent of energy collected out as electric, the rest as heat. Haven't tried it yet but am building a collector.

[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by petect on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 10:00:05 AM MST
(User Info)

Ron
That's the idea. I just need to scale it down.
Thanks
Pete

[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by thefinis (thefinis@hotmail.com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 07:51:12 AM MST
(User Info)

http://www.matteranenergy.us/

https://matteranenergy.us/web%20Flash/Matteran16.swf

Try looking at these links. This fellow/company has had the idea of a refrigerant boiler for some time plus has some good ideas on what could be done with the system. The second link is a pretty big flash video if you have slow internet.

He had several items I did not feel were really workable (last time I read his specs but been a couple of years) like the refrigerant he used and his injector/feed pump for the boiler as a small liquid holding tank above that was opened to the pressure chamber sould deliver fluid without all that plumbing.

On most high or low heat boiler systems you need to be very careful. To get much use there needs to be a large pressure variation and the fluids that respond best tend to be expensive or dangerous.

Finis
Texas born and bred

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by petect on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 10:13:07 AM MST
(User Info)

Finis

Thanks for the link. I'm sure I'll learn from it, even if that means learning what doesn't work.

IF this idea can be made to work, it might be driven by ant energy source. In Texas, solar might work, as in the article I posted, especially if there is a source of cooling water available. I'm hoping identify an inexpensive "turbine".
Pete

[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:21:26 AM MST
(User Info)

Wow, pretty much the same as I was talking about here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/7/26/54453/6673

ammonia engine using solar heated water to heat the ammonia, the ammonia in a closed loop system obviously.
Rural McG

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:26:18 AM MST
(User Info)

I had to laugh after looking at all the "new, high-tech developements". The references my librarian friend keeps for me that I mentioned, those generators operating on ammonia engines....copyright 1930!
Rural McG
[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by petect on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 03:38:18 PM MST
(User Info)

ruralmcguyver

I think we're pretty much on the same page - at least in the same chapter ;-)
I don't think the heat source is all that important. Wood, solar, whatever. Using it to vaporize a refrigerant (ammonia might work well), and convert it into mechanical energy is what I'm trying to do. Piston-type pumps may very well be the answer, but I just keep thinking that there are turbine, screw, or scroll-type refrigeration compressors rusting away in a junk yard near me that would work.

If you're able to post the names of some of the books you mentioned, I'll visit my local librarian. I' sure they contain a lot of relevant information.

Pete

[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 04:25:05 PM MST
(User Info)

I'll see if I can get some info from my librarian friend Monday. We're so rural here, they're only open 1/2 days on M-W-F!
The thing about these ammonia engines, they didn't require vaporizing it to make the engine run. Just the expansion of it @ 80-100deg.F was enough. Then, running the "exhausted" ammonia thru a copper coil buried in the ground was enough to cool it before re-use. Kind of like a Sterling motor on steroids, with an easy-storable heat source. From what I've gathered just today, an Ericson-type motor may be best for this. I know I'll get behind, as I'm making the BIG step & getting started on the gen first.
Rural McG
[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by BigBreaker on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 12:49:24 PM MST
(User Info)

Ammonia is cool because it is cheap and vaporizes at the right temperatures/pressures but it is incompatible with copper in anhydrous form. As a gas or a liquid it is very corrosive and it is also flammable.

If you are going for a partial pressure in a solution type of cycle, sure go ammonia, but for a pure phase change system, like a heat pipe, think about going for hydrocarbons.

A tank of butane/propane is pretty cheap and with some careful design, you can get the amount of flammable gas down pretty low. Best of all it is non corrosive so copper and aluminum are back in. European A/Cs use straight HCs as the refrigerant for efficiency, even in residential units.

[ Parent ]

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by petect on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 05:40:44 PM MST
(User Info)

Anyone who hasn't seen these may want to take a look.

http://www.labothap.ulg.ac.be/cmsms/Staff/QuoilinS/TFE_SQ010607.pdf

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/269605551/m/2551084412

Pete

Re: refrigerant driven turbine ? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 at 05:09:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Here's a "retro-tech" site. (steam, etc) there's even a 1915 record player that is powered by a Stirling engine with sterno candle heat.

The page on ammonia engines is mostly the history of failed patents from before WWII, but the bottom of the page has several links to a "Kalina Cycle" which is 70% Ammonia, and 30% water. Like an ammonia refrigeration cycle in reverse. The cooled water (by fan?) helps the vaporised exhaust ammonia condense easier.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWER/ammonia/ammonia.htm
Kalina Organic Rankine, 70% Ammonia/30% water

refrigerant driven turbine ? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial)

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