the Otherpower.com Discussion Board || Are there any small steam turbines commercially available?

Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Rants & Opinion - Diaries - Our Products

Are there any small steam turbines commercially available?
By Number21, Section Steam Posted on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 05:44:53 AM MST
Something in the 5-25hp range?

I've googled my brains out, but haven't found much for sale. I'm wondering if it's possible to buy a ready made, small steam turbine? Something in the 5 to 25 horsepower range would be amazing, but smaller would be cool too. Does anybody sell such a thing?

Are there any small steam turbines commercially available? | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Are there any small steam .... (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by bob g on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 12:10:30 AM MST
(User Info)

if you find one or a link to one please post it!

i have been wanting to try a gast air motor on steam, might make a hp or so?

bob g

Re: Are there any small steam .... (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by keithO on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 10:04:19 AM MST
(User Info)

How about using a turbo charger ? The turbine end is typically good for at least 600 degree C, it does not require high pressure but works more on flow rate. You would need dry steam to prevent longer term damage to the blades and of course a reduction drive to get the output shaft speed to a sane level. It may be possible to adapt the reduction drive from a junked Solar T32 engine to do the initial speed reduction.

It would also be neccersary to use some sort of condenser to recover the steam for re-circulation else the efficiency will be dismal.

Turbo chargers recover a significant amount of energy from the exhaust in order to compress the intake air. Several horsepower in fact to move 400-1000kg/hr of air through the air filter, compressor, intercooler and then the engine. The compressors, being so small in diameter, are not very efficient which is one of the reasons why so much heat is generated in the intake air.

Some infrastructure is also required, an oil tank for lube oil, an oil pump, which needs to run before the turbo spools up, a control system to stabilize operation, the steam generator and recovery unit. Somewhere to put it all where it won't bother your insurance co...

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam ..construct. notes (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by primative (kittysteam.turbines@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:56:45 PM MST
(User Info)

Hello,
From time to time I do a search just to see what is available in small steam turbines.
Not much, if any, New England S T seems to be out of business.
What I have seen a few years ago were not what I was looking for, being expensive, made of castings for housing, single runner, not good efficiency.
Well it would be nice to be able to buy something 'off the shelf' for applications in the 1 to 100 H.P. range.

yrs. ago I was offered a railway locomotive Turbogenerater, used for headlight and work lights, automatic train control/cab signals, and radio. Individual units for each application. The inlet piping was 1 or 1-1/4 inch size as I remember, so it used alot of steam at boiler pressure of ~250 lbs pressure, and probably weighed 200+ lbs, mostly castings. Manufactured by Sunbeam, I think. Perhaps I may be able to find archived documentation somewhere.
yrs. ago I built a small turboalternater, this worked surprisingly well. The disc was ~7" x 1/8" brass, with blades cut from 5/8" O.D. hobby tubing soldered to face for a radial inflow design. I made the expanding nozzle from copper tube, and the shaft from 1/2" diam. Stainless Steel, running in a 3/8" brass pipe nipple. Condensate lubrication was adequate with no signs of wear, surprisingly. The shaft was pinned to the pully bore of a Mopar alternater. I started at about 150 lbs. boiler pressure generating perhaps 7 amps and as I stoked the fire and the pressure went up to ~300 I was getting 45 amps at 15 volts. I think the nozzle orifice was < 3/16", maybe closer to 1/8". So good higher pressure really makes much more power. As the battery charged up the regulator cut in dropping the load on the turbine and I could hear the RPMs climb. The exhaust noise directly out of the can housing was not so loud as to be dis, just a high pitch sing. There was no governor, this was just experimental at the time. I got scared and backed away rather than shutting off the valve, and the pitch increased until there was a TING! sound of the blades stripping and that was all. The blading was so light weight there was no damage to the housing. I don't know what the R's were but not enough to throw the windings on the alt. rotor.

I considered the run a success even with the blade strip as I was very impressed with the amps output and the simplicity of construction and having it work on the first try enough to rebuild the rotor with stainless disk and bladeing and silver solder(which is much stronger and flows better) and fabricated a governor and throttle valve linkage. The greatest challenge was to attach the bladeing to the disk, I heated the disc on a 1 burner canp stove and the fed solder into the pre-positioned blades while also heating from above with a torch, rather a tricky piece of work as there is no stopping. I balanced the rotor and shaft by rolling along the top of the refrigerator and marking and drilling dimples at the heavy spot. There was no noticeable vibration.
I then tried making a 12" diam. rotor for 80 to 100 H.P. design. I was unable to have any but partial success in sweating the blades to this large a disc mostly having trouble with insufficient heat and flux build up and oxidation of metal. So I gave up on the direct soldering method and went about working up a method of fabrication and attachment of individual blades.
As anyone who has tried or wished to design and build a turbine of any kind will soon realize, the whole key to the making is in the ideal blade fabrication method; strong, light weight, inexpensive, repetitive accuracy and quality, simplicity of manufacture, minimal waste of materials, and modest investment in tooling. A browse through the Patents of the last 100 yrs. will attest to the efforts of many creative people in solving this design problem.
Once the bladeing is accomplished, the remainder of the turbine project seems comparatively easier, there are nozzles, governor and throttle, bearings and seals, and in some applications reduction gearing to provide. Most all of this is within the capabilities of a home shop machinist of well rounded experience. There is not much literature available specifically to small turbine design, there is the low pressure experience of Abner Doble (See book Doble Steam Cars) in using an exhaust steam turbine for condenser fan. In short, the nozzles are sized to the mass of steam and the pressure and the velocity, to produce the wanted torque and power, and the diameter and number of runners and blade angles chosen to keep the wheel speed within safe limits. An experienced designer soon learns what works and what is possible. A first time builder should follow a proven design. Work safely with high pressure steam.
Perhaps this post should be as a new thread.
If there is interest I may add to or continue this topic, let me know. In good work.
Primative

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:14:58 AM MST
(User Info)

I'd be interested in something like this too!
Well, actually, converting it to ammonia (yes, I said ammonia).
I had plans somewhere in this computer, 4 hard drives and 3 of them are 120gig.
Using solar heated water, and a good size storage tank, you use the water to heat the ammonia since it expands a lot at 100deg.F. There's even a couple books at the local library written about ammonia engines. I planned on eventually making or buying a 1-2hp one of these to run a gen just like one for a wind turbine. 100 gallons of hot water stored could easily run an ammonia engine this size for 24 hours or more.
I do remember the one book documenting a 200sq.ft. solar water heater, 500gal. insulated storage tank, running a 15hp ammonia motor practically indefinitely.
Rural McG

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 12:05:38 PM MST
(User Info)

Here:

http://www.greensteamengine.com

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 12:18:04 PM MST
(User Info)

And here:

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/mbsteam.htm

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 12:22:54 PM MST
(User Info)

And here:

http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn=54&action=show&show_products_mode=cat_click

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 02:25:01 PM MST
(User Info)

VERY COOL! Thanks Dnix! I checked out #1, the Greensteam engine. Looks like it would easily work with the hot water/ammonia system I was talking about. Nice & cheap price-wise. Even though I'm leary of the efficiency of the design, I think it could easily power a 400-1000watt gen like used on most windmills. Total cost & ease of making one seems pretty reasonable for that. Comments anyone?
I haven't checked out the others you posted, but I definitely will!
Thanks again!
Rural McG

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 05:35:31 PM MST
(User Info)

Ruralmcguyver,

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein_refrigerator
Works with flat plate solar heat collectors temperatures.

I am working on a steam engine, targeting 20% efficiency, solar heated.

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by BigBreaker on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 12:12:27 PM MST
(User Info)

20% efficiency would require pretty high temperatures. I would be careful about aiming that high. I believe DanB is well under 5% efficient from furnace to battery.

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 at 05:27:21 PM MST
(User Info)

BigBreaker,

Thanks, yes very high, 600F at 1500psia of steam.
Everything is rated for 7,200psia, so as long as I don't damage anything building it should be safe. Will water hydro test to 3,000psia to make sure system is safe.
Practical calculation suggest 27% realizable, to battery maybe 20%, I will be happy.
Intend to grid tie, good gen maybe above 20%!

If this does not hit 20% first will try to figure out why then will up the temperature to what ever it takes to hit 20%. I want 20% because its better than PV.

Cyclone steam engine getting lots of press is at 2,000F scary.

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by BigBreaker on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 12:36:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Those are very high levels for an ameteur. Be careful. Explosion and burn risks are no joke.

Personally, I think a converted ICE running on gasified fuel such as biomass is more practical than steam at those pressures/temps.

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 12:45:20 AM MST
(User Info)

I started out designing a Stirling heat engine. Seemed simple, did not understand why not the dominate engine type vs ICE. Took 9 months reading everything I could to discover why.
Crappy ICE starts out at 15-20% efficiency, can achieve 30% with careful design. (25% typical)
Crappy Stirling starts at 5% efficiency, as do many steam engines. Possibilities of 40% are claimed, reality is much less. High efficiency Stirling generally requires, design build and test. Process seems to go on and on to get a good design. Many model Stirling engines barely produce enough power to make themselves work. With all that said I gave up the Stirling engine design as impractical for a tinker to develop (unless lucky).

The steam engine on Otherpower, reminded me of what I do know, steam. 6 years in the Navy working with steam turbines. Years ago, built toy model steam engines, nothing big.

I am OK with the steam on this design, more worried about the solar concentrating mirrors. Think will use a welding helmet when near it!

Thanks,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: small steam turbines commercially available? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by sPuDd on Sat Jul 26th, 2008 at 09:08:57 PM MST
(User Info) Atherton Qld Australia

I think user Number21 was looking for a Turbine, not an engine.
I'd also be interested in a steam turbine in the sub 100hp range.
Where I live we have bucket loads of stinking hot sunlight that
I'd like to use to produce steam. A turbine is lower maintenance,
higher RPM and more efficient. They can also use less water.

sPuDd..

Re: Are there any small steam turbines... (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 09:18:24 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks ScottAI !

Also, thanks for the reminder that the poster was looking for a TURBINE. We do get off-topic sometimes, huh?

Like usual, either I'm on the wrong computer, or I'm too lazy to search all the links I've saved. Google "Tesla turbine". I know there's a company in the UK that makes a small version of one. They want a lot of $$ for it, and it's too small to do much. BUT, once someone has the blueprints, scale wouldn't be a problem!
Rural McG

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:47:12 PM MST
(User Info)

A steam "turbine" would be noisy like any other turbine, and not at all safe because of the rotor speeds.

Listen to what toy turbines sounds like.

http://www.instructables.com/id/RC-Steam-Turbine-Tank/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfx-Y71_Ik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0eSGqn2Bl4&feature=related This one only powers a minibike but it sounds like a 747 powering up.

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:56:01 PM MST
(User Info)

Heres someone who built a 4kw turbine for his home in Toyko.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yy-Q2_Qs_s&feature=related

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 08:30:50 PM MST
(User Info)

Here is a hydro turbine running a car alternator. The rpms are high enough in a turbine to make it work, BUT it's still noisy. The video shows very little water out, so there must be some serious head behind that pipe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm5umkWvtnE&NR=1

[ Parent ]

Re: Are there any small steam turbines,,, (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sun Jul 27th, 2008 at 01:15:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Excellent point Dnix!

horsepower vs. RPM is a major factor!

If you want to run a genny like what is used on windmills, or a genny like used on domestic 110v generators is a HUGE difference. Turbines have to run a LOT more RPMs than the engines we(I) got off-track about. Check out the link Dnix mentioned!
Most of the engines mentioned operate around 1000 RPMs or less, or are easily made to produce optimum HP in that range.

As usual, more details on what is needed, what it's used for, etc. are needed. OK, maybe they aren't, and Number21 only wants exactly what asked for. Sorry 'bout that, but this post provided a lot of useful info regardless.
Rural McG

Are there any small steam turbines (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by BoilerJay on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 09:57:38 PM MST
(User Info)

Dresser offers alot of small reconditioned units.
http://www.dresser-rand.com/steam/classic_sst.asp
We are replacing a couple of 2000HP 3 stage condensing turbines in a couple months, could probably get you a deal on them......
RPM all depends on steam pressure, plus load. Most require over 100PSI for max output.
There are alot of factors to figure on how much steam is required to power the turbine, including what to do with the waste steam off of the outlet. It's all doable but it requires some engineering

Re: Are there any small steam turbines commerciall (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 05:10:44 PM MST
(User Info)

WXYZCIENCE has moved to a remote location and said he will be off-line for quite a while. If you check his diaries, or the "steam archives" post, you will find his stories.

I don't know of any commercial turbines, other than a wet-methane burning turbine adapted from a turbo that was used to generate electricity on oil rigs as a replacement for diesel-gens.

WXYZCIENCE is a machinist and made a single stage high-RPM turbine by mating two plates that had curved cuts on the edge, resulting in the 90-degree turn needed to get it spinning from a steam jet.

He also tried adapting a turbocharger to steam. I was interested in the PMA he built, he said he had to use a special wire (Litz?) to generate electricty when using high RPM's.

There are some turbines being used for a steam turbine of sorts that uses freon, called "Organic Rankine Cycle" (thanks, wdyasq!). From their web-sites, I got the impression they only sold whole systems, and they were very expensive.

Are there any small steam turbines commercially available? | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial)

Menu

� create account
� How to use the board
� FAQs
� search the board
� Google search the board
� Old Otherpower Board

Login

Make a new account

Username:

Password:

Total Views

��154 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links

� Also by Number21

You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest � 2003 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!