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blades


By ebby1234, Section Wind
Posted on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 10:56:05 PM MST
low speed

We all see 3 blade turbines tuning quite fast because it is said they are the most efficient. Years ago the (dutch windmill) was a large 4 blade low rpm windmill which seemed very powerful and very pleasing to the eye. Would it not be better so follow that design and make it more efficient. My first wind turbine was a 10ft 4 blade driving a dynamo with a 9 to 1 ratio with a chain which gave me over 80 amps at 12 volts. I am thinking along these lines again using a very slow speed 4 blade and gearing. What comments does any one have. Bob
blades | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Flux on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 06:32:51 PM MST
(User Info)

If you could give us the wind speed at which you got the 960W it would help to form an opinion. Perhaps giving your output at 8 and 12 mph would give us even more idea of the relative performance compared with a more conventional machine.

There have been some good results obtained at low speed with proper aerofoil machines ( Windflower being a good example), but they may not fall into your category of " pleasing to the eye". That is likely something that comes from traditional acceptance. If the Dutch type mills had never been produced and become familiar to us, I wonder how well they would be accepted if invented now.

If you have plenty of wind then there are a lot of things that will work. With a 9:1 gearing you can use a very efficient generator and in higher winds the loss from a decent chain drive will be small. If you can reduce the generator light load and bearing loss to near nothing then the chain may still let you manage something in lighter winds. If you must keep to the Dutch mill type blades rather than more efficient aerofoil ones designed for the low speed then you will probably not do a lot of good in a light wind area.

If local conditions or pressure from others force you to take this low speed route then it is not impossible to get reasonable results but it is not a logical approach for anyone not constrained to follow that path.

Flux



Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Jul 28th, 2008 at 07:59:19 PM MST
(User Info)

Part of what makes lift-type turbines efficient is turning fast.

To get energy out of the air you have to slow it down and deflect it.  You can't take all the energy out - you need to leave some energy in the air to get the used air out of your blades and let new air come in and bring more energy with it.  (The max you can extract before extracting more gets you less is the "Betz limit".  That's 16/27 (59.3%))  But any energy you left in the air other than simply slowing it by Betz's amount - turbulence, sound, vortices, rotation, etc. - represents energy you didn't capture, i.e. a loss of efficiency.

Newton's first law says that if the wind applies a torque to your blades your blades will apply a torque to the wind.  That means the air leaves your blades with a spin to it.  This spin represents lost energy.

With a single layer of blades all moving in the same direction you can't cancel this torque out and capture that energy.  (And multiple layers of counterrotating blades to capture a couple extra percent of power is a reduction in the most important measure of efficiency:  Power per unit of investment.  B-)  )  So you want to keep the energy lost to "twisting the wind" low.

Power is force times distance, which (for a rotating system) means torque times RPM.  For a given amount of power you can run your blades fast (high speed, low torque) or slow (low speed, high torque).   The faster your blades, the lower they torque the wind, and the smaller the fraction of energy they waste by spinning the "exhaust".

Thus, for efficiency, we use high-TSR designs that can approach the Betz limit pretty closely, rather than low-TSR designs that waste more power downwind.  (The limit here is that we don't want the tip speed to get too close to the speed of sound in a high wind and get into the goofy air behavior as parts of the airstream have supersonic interactions with the blades.  So TSRs above 7 or so are starting to push it.)  Faster rotation also means more power per unit of magnet and wire cost in a directly-coupled alternator (and speed-changers such as gearboxes, chains, or belts introduce extra costs and trouble).  So fast blades are a win/win.



Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by electrondady1 on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 at 06:04:56 AM MST
(User Info)

all that really matters is your personal satisfaction.
you alone must decide on the design criteria.
for some, efficiency is everything.
for others aesthetics is paramount.

[ Parent ]


Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Stan on Tue Jul 29th, 2008 at 11:15:08 AM MST
(User Info)

http://nov55.com/wdm.html

http://www.wind-works.org/articles/PowerCurves.html

Here is a couple of web sites on windmill effiency and here is a web site where you can buy an "Aerojoule" multi-blade windmill for generating electricity. They have 5kw, 10kw, 20kw and 65kw models.

http://www.niagarawindpower.com/wind_products.htm
Stan.
[ Parent ]



Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wdyasq on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 at 09:01:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Stan,

While the work by Paul Gipe is accurate and commendable, that article you reference by Gary Novak titled "Windmill Efficiency" is pure bunk, IMO. Although he claims to be an "independent  scientist", he failed to do the proper research and note the proper documentation on the 'number of blades' and relies on:

"Let me say this in plain English. Anyone can look at an old-fashioned farm windmill, which had about 18 blades, and compare it to an experimental windmill, which had 2 blades, and see that the farm windmill was extremely efficient, and the experimental windmill is extremely inefficient. It is quite visible that unused wind goes between the blades with two and three blade systems. Propagandists use a lot of numbers and jargon to deny the obvious, but their numbers are not fact."

I regret, Mr.Novak, the numbers are fact and have been proven. One only needs to find the proper research paper.

Numbers can be juggled in a lot of ways to prove things one way or the other to the ignorant. It is far easier to ignore reality and just bad-mouth a concept because one does not understand it.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]



Re: blades (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 at 10:58:44 PM MST
(User Info)

In particular, visual solidity is not particularly related to aerodynamic solidity, especially for lift-type turbine blades (which function much like helicopter blades or aircraft wings).

When a windmill blade sweeps by, it decellerates, not just the air it touches directly, but air on both sides of the blade for a considerable distance as well.  It slows the upwind air by raising the pressure upstream of it, and (for lift-types) also slows the downwind air by lowering the pressure behind it.

So you have a slug of air that has had its energy extracted.  This slug moves downwind.  If the next blade comes by about the time the slug has moved by its own length (or by the length of the fully-slowed part of the slug plus half the length of the leading plus trailing partially-slowed parts), the next blade decellerates the NEXT slug of air and no air gets through the mill's cross-section without having the appropriate amount of energy pulled from it.

So aerodynamic solidity depends on the ratio of the depth of the affected air times the number of blades to the radius times the TSR.  A fast-moving blade doesn't have to be very wide to affect a deep slug of air (which is why lift type blades get NARROWER near the tips - which are moving faster and thus can be narrower to achieve the same along-wind-direction "reach".)

This is why Gary Novak's thought-experiment is a crock.



blades | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial)
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