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Tubular rotor?


By wdesilvey, Section Newbies
Posted on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 09:34:16 PM MST
Segmented or no?

Hello again!

If one had a tubular piece of steel as a potential rotor, would you mount the magnets on it with or without dividers?

What I mean is, you would have mayhap 3 or 4 coil/magnet arrangements throughout this setup.

Would you sequester each individual arrangement (ie shield it) from the other sections or not?

Thanks,

Bill

Tubular rotor? | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 04:17:28 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

What would you like to divide or shield your magnets/coils from ?
W o o f -={(



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wdesilvey (wrdrn@dsoelectricwb.com) on Sun Jul 6th, 2008 at 04:22:32 PM MST
(User Info)

From each other??

I though there would be some type of flux "bleedover" (likely not correct terminology, but best I can conceive @ this moment) from one set to the next.

[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by electrondady1 on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 03:44:18 PM MST
(User Info)

so you are talking about a single rotor radial ?

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by wdesilvey (wrdrn@dsoelectricwb.com) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 06:43:43 AM MST
(User Info)

Or multiples within a tubular enclosure. What I meant was, assuming multiples, do you need to isolate (magnet wise) each successive set from the next?

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 04:17:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

As best as I know, there is no way to shield magnets from each other anyway, so I would'nt bother. The only good way to stop the interaction between magnets close together, is to spread them apart which isn't always possible.
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by electrondady1 on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 07:19:30 AM MST
(User Info)

wdesilvery,
i can,t realy get a picture of what you are talking about .
i did this sketch of a dual rotor radial.
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/dual_rotor_radial_Small.jpg
if you are talking about a single rotor with no flux return path then yes the flux
travels sideways to the next mag.


[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by fungus (info@reenergy.co.uk) on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 07:26:08 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.reenergy.co.uk/

That link doesnt work here .. http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/dual_rotor_radial__Small_.jpg is the right one?

'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.'-Albert Einstein
Fungus - www.reenergy.co.uk
[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by electrondady1 on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 10:14:20 PM MST
(User Info)

sorry about the wacky link.
 don't know what to do about it.
it's in my files under "dual rotor radial small jpg"
 

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by kurt on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 01:26:38 PM MST
(User Info)

electrondady1 scoop really don't like it when you upload and post a file or a link to a file with spaces in the file name and double spaces give it a total fit if you wanna avoid problems in the future rename your files to something that is alloneword before uploading them to the server it is a known scoop bug the _ that the server puts in the spaces in the file names drives scoops auto format absolutely batty and messes everything up....

http://www.reresource.org/

IRC
[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by electrondady1 on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:59:34 PM MST
(User Info)


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/dualrotorradial

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Sun Jul 13th, 2008 at 01:09:07 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Bill

 The idea of the second rotor is to concentrate the flux through the stator.If not the flux will curve back to the steel it's mounted on or find a nearby mag to play with.Called Leakage Flux but there maybe a more technical term.
 Your use of the word "tubular"confuses me.Would you clarify that.

 Thank's
 Mark

[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by wdesilvey (wrdrn@dsoelectricwb.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 09:24:04 AM MST
(User Info)

Mark:

Well, EVERYONE USUQALLY comments re my supposed excellent command of the English language, but I see that I just aint doing so hot here! Likely d/t the relative newness of the subject to me.

Ok, imagine a steel pipe a few feet long. The outer portion containing the coils is (for the sake of description) large diameter PVC. On the steel pipe (rotor, armature, or whatever proper term is) are several sets of magnets (maybe 6-8 per set?)

Around each individual set are the corresponding coils. (PVC pipe mount.) So, what I'm asking is: is each individual set separated by something resistant to penetration of the preceding set's magnetism (SS or whatever is appropriate) or is it all continuously open end to end?

Thanks,

Bill

[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by TomW on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 11:25:17 AM MST
(User Info)


"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by DanG on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 02:27:51 PM MST
(User Info)

Letsee...

When producing rare-earth magnets they map out what is needed to achieve either the maximum or intended focus sets in flux projections of the pole faces and quench that onto the blank's 'memory' with a huge pulse of electromagnetism - thus a standard neodymium mag will already be resistant to bleeding over onto adjacent magnets by design (also a smaller non-pole surface area with the mags we use)

There will be some lateral attraction since in an alternator the adjacent magnets poles alternate but it is only a fraction of what is present on the true pole faces of the magnet. Having an iron backing seriously helps too.

What was missing in your question might have been the scale of the tube - 16-inch diameter outer pipe and 14-inch inner pipe, etc.. This idea is where a lot of pioneers in home built wind power started by using junk brake drums on their original spindles/hubs/bearings.

Where this gets difficult is there is no adjustment possible of the air-gap, the coils formed need compound curve winding to match radius and the magnets themselves need to have complete iron backing contact so would need to either be custom formed, have machined flats on the rotors, or adapter pillow segments that mate evenly with the curving steel pipe. That is not counting the increase in difficulty of finding material and making a whole assembly and balancing that one-up piece if you aren't using automotive parts that is vastly simplified by using trailer hubs and plate steel.

It is a fine idea but there are too many other variables (blade length, profiles, stator and drop wire run details) that a dual-rotor axial flux adjustable air-gap proves very helpful with for DIY wind power.



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by wdesilvey (wrdrn@dsoelectricwb.com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 05:01:59 PM MST
(User Info)

Please define compound curve winding?

Thanks,
Bill

[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by DanG on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:09:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Coil wound as almost as usual (around the a form) with the difference of both faces (and everything in between) matches the radius of pipe 'annular' rotor faces for minimum and even air gap?

[ Parent ]


Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by DanG on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 07:33:14 PM MST
(User Info)

http://tinyurl.com/windblat-mag

These folks' direct drive wind turbines use annular alternators - not dual rotors though.

Link is to their trade magazine that has some close ups in some of the issues...

Two megawatt output on their turbine diameter of 82 meters, with no gearbox...

[ Parent ]



Re: Tubular rotor? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Mon Jul 14th, 2008 at 06:05:35 PM MST
(User Info)

Disclaimer: I haven't built one yet, but,...

This sounds like a radial configuration, like a soda can spinning inside a slightly larger can. (if an "axial" is like one pancake spinning next to a stationary pancake)

"Zubbly" was the master of the radial motor conversion to PMA. When building a radial from scratch, it may be useful to look at some zubbly conversion pics. Here's some from my file:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/4/18/14151/1216
Good pics of rotor, Coils are skewed, so mags are straight.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/6/1/16542/40444
pics, 3/4 HP, 220/380 VAC/1440 RPM's, skewed rectangular magnets, 48 VDC at 340 RPM, ~560 watts.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/7/22/82515/9969
GOOD PICS !, 7.5 Hp 230 volt single phase, 36 slots, 54V@ 250rpm

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/17/22270/167
good pics, British 3HP 380V, now 260V @ 1500 rpm

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/13/214531/690
5HP Baldor, good pics + magnet/coil drawings




Tubular rotor? | 18 comments (18 topical, 0 editorial)
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