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Stupid Furling Question


By suitep123, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Aug 19th, 2008 at 02:28:35 AM MST
Tail angle confusion

So...we built a furling mount.  Bob made it adjustable in order to dial it in at 5 - 15 degrees out from parallel of the yaw.

Maybe someone can make sense out of this for us.  If the center line of the yaw and the center line of the motor are parallel, why is the tail positioned 10 degrees or so out from the yaw center line?  That seems backwards.  If that is correct, and the tail always stays in line with the wind, then the hub and blades are not perpendicular to the wind - they have to come BACK to perpendicular before furling begins?  That means the motor, hub and blades "square" to the tail when furling begins?  On the surface wouldn't you want the tail and the motor to at least be "squared" to begin with?

If we can get a "next to no wind" day to do some decent truck tests, maybe we can get some more accurate balance and readings.  We have had the system out, and it does work - even the furling - not difinitively, and even though we don't thoroughly understand why.  

Sorry to sound so inept - we're just really trying to understand and learn as we go rather than just do like we're told without understanding anything.

When finding the 5 to 15 degree angle, could we use a big shop fan to find the best starting position?  That would give us steady wind speed, although no idea how many mph, to make adjustments - rather than the unstable, all over the board readings we get at the end of the street here.

This being almost completed, we'd like to try to make a real generator next, by building the stator and all, rather than starting with a PMA.  

Thanks everyone!
Bob and Pauline

Stupid Furling Question | 3 comments (3 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Stupid Furling Question (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:20:10 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

I believe Dans design lets the tail extend in its "at rest" position greater than 90 degrees from the prop. I think this has to do with balancing the turbine better on the tower top and allowing the machine to be better balanced when in the furled position also. I might be wrong on this and I hope someone else jumps in.

I have had very successful turbine designs without the excess 10 degrees (furling tail at rest perfect 90 degrees). You just have to play with the tail pivot and how far out from the yaw pivot, you put it. Without knowing exactly what you are doing, I suggest following his plans. You can change it around to your liking after you have a better understanding of how it works. I could go into detail explaining it, but unless you see it in action, it is hard to get across in the right way.

I will say that there is not that much difference in performance with the prop not running dead into the wind. You have a bit of a fudge factor here. I tend to think its around +/- 15 degrees. Others here might say more, but then the more you go, the machine would look funny in its normal running position.

Again, I tend to say that the extra 10 degrees is not that critical, as long as it tracks correctly,  furls properly, and is balanced relatively well on the tower.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



Re: Stupid Furling Question (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Tue Aug 19th, 2008 at 12:46:22 AM MST
(User Info)

There probably are no stupid furling questions.

Try looking at it this way. If there is no alternator offset and the tail is directly in line it will point into the wind but you have no mechanism to cause it to furl.

Now it may be convenient to think of the original idea from which the furling scheme is devised.

Imagine the alternator with no offset but with a boom attached at right angles to the wind with a small tail vane mounted on it. Obviously the wind pressure on this vane will try to rotate the thing so that this vane goes down wind. The main tail will try to stay down wind and steer the prop as before, but there is now a balance of forces between the main tail and the little vane at right angles trying to get it out of the wind.

There is no force on the main tail vane when directly down wind so something needs to happen. As soon as the main tail is pushed sideways it starts to see a restoring force ( and this becomes a maximum when the vane is at right angles to the wind).

The result is that the thing balances with the prop at an angle to the wind where the force on the projected area of the main tail vane balances the force on the projected area of the control vane. As the main tail vane is significantly bigger than the control one it will settle with the prop at some angle to the wind ( say 30 deg). This balance holds for all wind speeds if you forget factors due to the prop ( too complex to consider now)

Early on someone realised that the side vane could be removed and the same effect could be obtained by simply offsetting the alternator axis. It looks better and gets rid of one bit of mechanism.

If you managed to follow that ( would have been better with a drawing), you will see that if the main tail is directly in line with the alternator axis the prop will end up running at an angle to the wind. It will not run in line as you assumed.

The only way to get the prop to run in line is to push the main tail axis in the other direction to a sufficient angle to compensate the alternator thrust so that the prop runs as intended. This is where the 10 deg comes from. In reality I think you will find that the angle required to do this completely is over 30 deg so it is a compromise between a bit of improvement and still looking reasonable.

Additionally requiring the tail to move more than 90 deg causes additional problems and when you get to 120 deg the thing becomes worse.

Fortunately as Roy said the drop in power with angle to the wind is fairly small up to about 30deg, so choosing 10 deg you end up running about 20 deg to the wind with little impact on the power.

What happens during the furling stage when the tail moves in relation to the alternator axis is very complex and I don't intend to continue to deal with that. You asked about the tail offset angle and I think I have explained enough to cover that.

With these schemes there is no way to balance the mechanical parts in a way that works before and during furling. The tail offset does tend to help this compromise but it is a secondary issue. Once it goes into furling the thing becomes totally unbalanced. Doesn't matter on land but makes this type of furling nearly useless for boats.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Stupid Furling Question (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by suitep123 (harrison7299@comcast.net(no spam)) on Tue Aug 19th, 2008 at 10:02:57 PM MST
(User Info)

Wow Roy, you and Flux have provided a wealth of information.  It was overwhelming at 5 this monring.  It has been a very busy day and reading it again this evening it is still a bit overwhelming.  

I am still processing all the info and I am sure I will have a question or two more.  Thank you so much for the explanations!  It truly does help.  It helps even more that we HAVE had it out and seen it furl.  Having seen this, I can take what y'all are saying and picture it in motion during the tests we did - then try to make some sense out of it all......

We'll post more tomorrow after I take some notes  :-)

Thanks again y'all.
Pauline and Bob

[ Parent ]



Stupid Furling Question | 3 comments (3 topical, 0 editorial)
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