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What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation
By mixerman, Section Solar Posted on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:47:50 PM MST
What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation

I still do not have my HF panels on line yet so I have been doing other things. When its
cooler in the attic I'm going to run the wires from roof top into the attic and down to the
garage.
The plan for that is to combine the panel or panel sets of three on the roof, then run 10
GA, wire through a weather head of some sort, into the attic.
The supports for the panels IM still not sure about , thinking maybe used screen door
frames or something like that.
I found a Victor 1000w inverter on Criglist and picked up for 50 bucks.

The GHurd controller is under construction now! More on that later.

My son and I replaced our existing gas hot water heater with a new one from Sears the
other one was leaking and not very efficient.

I kept the old one thinking maybe strip it and paint it black to solar pre-heat water for the
new one. I really do not think its worth it though sense it has a leak. Recently I went to
Lowes and seen a new one that had been sideswiped by a forklift , the first time I seen it
100 bucks! 2 days later it was 50 bucks, the next day 25 bucks, I didn't get that day but
went back to get it and of course it was gone. Snooze you loose applies here!
While the rest of the family went on a vacation I run some new gas lines to the kitchen to
install a gas range and get rid of the ele one. One of the igniters was not working and I
had to fix that, it was just shorting out. Taking the stove apart was a real treat.

Sense the gas range requires ele to start I did some wiring for that. I also installed a extra
outlet and run a wire into the basement for a future hookup to the inverter if needed. Of
course after I did all this the price of natural gas went up 40%.
Also did a sump pump and new plumbing. The old one hasent worked for afew years.This
year we needed it.
I got firewood on my mind now.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
mixerman

What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by TomW on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 10:40:53 AM MST
(User Info)

mixerman;

You don't need to solar preheat your incoming water. What I mean is simply setting the extra tank up in line with the cold to the water heater will let the water sitting in the tank between uses rise above the temp it comes from the well at.

Better if its directly heated by the sun but every degree you raise it before it gets to the heater is one degree you don't need to put into it energy wise.

Just a thought. I call this an "ambient air temperature preheater"

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 11:05:07 AM MST
(User Info)

...I call this an "ambient air temperature preheater"

Are you sure that's a benefit? Aren't you bringing a whole bunch of cold water into the house to just suck heat from the air? That air that was heated somehow by using energy. Heat the air in the house more, to "pre-heat" the water. I don't get it. Sounds like a zero-sum game.

What would be really neat would be a system that lets you transfer heat from waste water (eg from the shower, or better yet, dishwasher) in that pre-heater tank. Can't picture big economic benefit in a house, but maybe this could be (or already has been) done in a commercial building.
Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by zap (bell47g5a at comcast dot net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 11:39:22 AM MST
(User Info)

It's been done... and even talked about here. I can't find the story but here's something for you.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13040

zap
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by mixerman on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 01:07:04 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for the link. The copper lines going to the kitchen area would cost to much,I dont think you would gain much. Consider this! The kitchen sink water is supplyed with a 1/2" line , that water then drains in to a 1 1/2" drain, then to a 4" drain , how much of that water is in actuall contact with the drain pipe?!

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by ghurd on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 07:43:19 PM MST
(User Info)

It's here,
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/12/13/172543/25
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by zap (bell47g5a at comcast dot net) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 09:30:52 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks G... board search and google search didn't want to work for me.

zap
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by TomW on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:44:32 PM MST
(User Info)

Uh, well, mine sat in the yard. Basements generally are unheated here anyway. My point, which you obviously missed, was the simplicity of just a tank of water with no outside plumbing, solar covers, boxes, etc.

Just ideas.

If I am now required to explain every minute detail of the down sides to advice I will just stop offering it. I will leave that to the academics sitting in their offices.

I did this for years on the north side of my house and it worked great with no direct sun on the tank. When I had 2 in series it would get the second tank pretty close to the same temp as the air. I probably lost some gain to radiation to the night sky, too, but it was a net gain. I suppose I should note, in order to avoid you explaining the obvious, I only did this while outdoor temperatures were above 55 or 60 F. We have no basement. Info is in my Diary someplace since I actually shared it here long ago.

And, yes, waste heat recovery sounds good but likely not trivial for the non plumbing oriented.

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:30:10 PM MST
(User Info)

Actually, Tom, I was trying to act like the nerdy academic sitting in an office. I was even waving a thermodynamics textbook in the air for added effect. Too bad you couldn't have seen it.

After posting I remembered that there's a building in Calgary that has a heat-exchange system on waste water. Probably city-owned. Just wanted to add the idea to the thread because it's always sounded interesting to me.

Steven Fahey
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by mixerman on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:56:10 PM MST
(User Info)

I dont think I will find that much difference from street water temp and winter time house temp, maybe 10-15 degrees, guessing! Our basement is not heated on purpose. The room where the tank is located is alot warmer than anywhere else in the basement. In the Winter I could maybe direct heat from the ele dryer around the chilled tank. Just a idea!

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ghurd on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 01:12:26 PM MST
(User Info)

Often called a "Tempering Tank".

Depends on where you live?
We don't heat the house about 7 months a year. 3 months welcome any cooling.
If I could get the water from 55F to 72F, that is a gain.

My cheapie water heater is far less efficient than my furnace. Much of the water temp increase would be caused by heat from the efficient furnace, instead of the cheap water heater.
That would mean a gain too... I think.

Here, the electric co gave a reduction in rates if an 80 gal tempering tank was installed before an electric water heater.
No idea if they still do.
=

That waste water thing is cool. Someone did a study of a working unit in a USA duplex, and I figured DIY payback was like a couple months before copper went up.
I would have one if our shower was over a basement. :-/

I often thought SOMETHING before the recovery part would increase the temp.
Maybe 50' of 3/4" CU.
Maybe 25' of 3/4 CU with 6" pieces of scrap #12 soldered to the sides as a heat sink (anti-heat sink?).

And maybe if that verticle do-hickey was insulated it would work better.

I see there are a buch of new replies since I started, but I'm leaving this as-is.
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by mixerman on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 05:22:50 PM MST
(User Info)

I cant see where coils around the out side of a pipe momently coming in contact with heat will do it. This I think is better.

mixerman

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 01:23:11 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

The coils round the side of the pipe apparently do work because (if you've set things up correctly) when showering a thin film of water runs down the inside of the waste pipe transferring its heat very effectively and flow is not impeded.

A grey-water sump as you have shown will accumulate 'bath hair' and worse and breed exciting biofilms and worse IMHO!

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by BigBreaker on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 at 08:07:17 AM MST
(User Info)

I agree with Damon on grey-water. It shouldn't stand for more than 24 hours and it should never go through regular (small) valves, tight curves, traps or diameter reducers. The hassle of pulling out the hair will cause the project to be abandoned. It will clog.

Perhaps a flapper valve and toilet hardware would work?

For grey water think big diameters and slow.

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by mixerman on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 at 08:42:15 AM MST
(User Info)

I think what is meant is a virtical drain pipe is coiled on its outside not in any direct contact with the heated gray water.

In my pictue you will see that the coils are in contact with the gray water, Im sure this would allow for some kind of build up! (soap scum, hair, cooties)the core of the tank would be self-contained though! Dont really know if the build up would really effect its effenecy or create some kind of hassard.

The plumbing would remain the same size in use in the system 1 1/2" traps should work fine , the existing drain traps have never cloged in 20 years. For a controled drain maybe a ele t-stat! I think some cas have them today.

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by BigBreaker on Tue Aug 26th, 2008 at 09:03:15 AM MST
(User Info)

I think the coils in the grey water tank will get some build up. Also that tank will need to be totally drained daily to avoid having it go septic. I would consider putting the coils on the outside of the tank rather than inside.

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by mixerman on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:46:41 PM MST
(User Info)

I could probely do something like that to! I wouldent want to be bringing a tank from out in the yard to do seasonaly, I could do it both ways! Not that much plumbing involved. I dont have well water, I'll have to check and see what temp the city water is coming in at.

Originally my thoughts were just set it out in the Sun, drain lines an dont use it in Winter.

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by TomW on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:57:17 PM MST
(User Info)

mixer;

I added a set of frostless faucets to the outside one Ted off before and one Ted off after a ball valve in my cold in to the heater. attach tank to those with top to the after faucet and the first faucet to the bottom [or dip tube] of the tank. That way, come freezing weather you just turn off the faucets, remove the lines, open the ball valve and you are back to "normal". When using the preheater you close the ball valve to force water to go through the preheater. My water heater is within a few inches of the north wall of the house and I bought good quality washing machine hose to go from the faucets to the tank.

You could easily do it both in and outside with some thought.

Good luck with it.

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:34:28 PM MST
(User Info)

I thought of doing something like that when we
replaced my daughter's water heater....was going
to strip it down ....nice sheet metal covering too
....but then they don't make 'em like they used to...
insulation glued to the tank...and glued to the sheet metal
...so I said...forget that!
( :>) Norm
[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Simen on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 12:07:17 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.mwlmf.net

I've been playing around with something like graywater exchange lately, though only manually from my bathtub... ;)

I've made a small solarpanel with a size of 20sq. inch, which are connected to an old 30gal. heater tank. In a sunny day, it'll raise those 30 gal. of water from around 70f to 82f-86f. I'll make a diary of it here sometime... ;)

Point is; after a bath (with lukewarm water from my 30gal. solar-tank, supplied with hotwater from my ordinary heater.), the temperature of the bathwater would be around 96f-100f. At this point, my solar-tank would be empty, so i fill it slowly with tapwater through a 10ft 1/2" coppercoil submersed in the used bathwater. That raises the tapwater from 46f to around 75f. :)

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Old F on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 03:58:12 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.oldf.homestead.com

If you can fix the leak in the old gas water heater you can strip out the burner an use the flue as a heat exchanger

This is what I have been using with my Out door wood stove to heat my hot water

Here is a link to my wood stove saga

http://oldf.homestead.com/Woodmasterishere.html

An look in to using PEX tubing for the long runs a lot cheaper than copper

Old F

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by mixerman on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 06:33:38 PM MST
(User Info)

That is a good idea! I like your stove. Have you ever stripped one of those tanks with the hot wire?

I forgot about there being a center in that tank, that changes things!
thanks for the link.
mixerman

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by mixerman on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 06:42:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Those are good results. Would like to read that dirary when you make it.
mixerman

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by mixerman on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 at 08:27:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Had some time Labor day so I cut the jacket off the old water heater. The installation that
was around it was a joke, about 1 inch. No wonder the laundry room was the warmest
room in the basement. Its been rolling round in the back of my pickup sense Monday and
it has knocked some of the calcium loose.

Anyone know the best way to get the calcium out of the inside of the tank?

My wife made a comment last that the gas bill went down about 9 bucks last month and
that included using a gas stove for the cooking that was just installed.

I tryed to add another picture here but no go.

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by mixerman on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 at 08:37:03 AM MST
(User Info)

Thats better!

[ Parent ]

Re: What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Thu Sep 4th, 2008 at 09:09:58 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Descaling agent?

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

What I have been doing, Solar and Conservation | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 editorial)

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