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Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house
By Akos, Section Wind Posted on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM MST
I have found out something simple, but it is already patented by Spanish company. Can I make it anyway?

I am about to build a VAWT onto my house in urban area. It has to be VAWT not only because of lack of straight winds, but also to trick local rules and laws. (Wind turbines are NOT allowed locally. But "windspinners" in some special form are possible...)
I have designed some interesting model having very low upwind resistance due to its flapping style. The upwind side of the turbine is tilted 90 degrees to have very small wind resistance, and while downwind it is tilted back.
I thought it will be a very good, powerful version and searched the web if anyone else did this before. Two days of searching resulted in a company Oliran Magevais who have designed their system very similarly. Indeed, the one seen on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r26CBIyL28 is almost the same to my design.
I do not speak too much of Spanish, but I see this is a patented design.
First question: Do you think I can build one and use it for myself?
Second: What do you think of the design itself? Would it be powerful in low windspeeds too as I hope?
Thanks.

Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Fresh design idea of a powerful VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Slingshot on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 10:43:52 AM MST
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You can build a patented device for your own use, just not for commercial/resale (at least in the USA).

You do not need the patent holder's permission.

Re: Fresh design idea of a powerful VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:37:46 PM MST
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Note that commercial use includes using it in a commercial process. I.e. don't use it to contribute to making income even if you're not selling the device itself. (Saving money on your own consumption should be OK.)

I don't know if that goes as far as making use of a patented mill to provide generic electric power to a commercial workshop a patent infringement, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a powerful VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by Slingshot on Fri Sep 5th, 2008 at 10:44:54 AM MST
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You are probably correct, but I think those type of nits would have to be picked in court, and I'll bet it's not likely to happen for an individual. He'd first have to somehow catch the attention of a corporate lawyer who actually thought the individual's use of the IP was costing the corporation money. Then he'd further have to ignore the "cease and desist" letter that the lawyer sends, and personally decide to go to court for sake of principle.

For example, I could hypothetically build a headlamp modulator (safety device) for a motorcycle used on my son's paper route. These are patented devices, but I would not worry about any risk of litigation. Not saying that I've actually built this device, or that I even have a son, of course :)

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 11:00:26 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

You must not know how much an electric generator vibrates while producing power. If you put it on the house you won't be able to sleep anymore and all of the nails could work themselfs out of the wood.
http://www.fieldlines.com/comments/2008/6/20/04423/6376/9#9

W o o f -={(

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by zap (bell47g5a at comcast dot net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 11:34:16 AM MST
(User Info)

I think windstuffnow has had a pretty good experience with keeping the noise down on his roof mounted vawt. http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/31/133714/011 I'm not sure if this is still the case with Ed's installation as this story is a bit dated now.

zap
[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by electrondady1 on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:12:36 PM MST
(User Info)

thanks for the utube link .
that company has some beautiful designs
i think slingshot has it right.
as far as mounting it to your house ,
what sort of dia. and rpm range are you thinking .
vibration could be a problem unless you take some real measures to combat it.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:10:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Akos

I don't think it's a good idea.
Flappy blades will be too slow unless you build a monster that could tip your house over.If anything happens your insurance co. will not cover it.If you tell them they will more and likely drop you.

Anybody can make a vawt spin.Harnessing the power takes time and study.

Just my opinion though.

Mark

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Akos on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 12:59:41 PM MST
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Ok, I am thinking on having around 1000 W if possible.
My idea is that I am ok to cover all my house's area (viewing from above) to make a slowly, but powerfully spinning VAWT.

I do not want to connect to household power, only heating in winter (and maybe cooling in summer). We pay too much on heating due to my wife's temperature needs. What I think is that I would like to make a very simple machine with minimum part number kept in mind in order to make it paying back quickly. I can make the VAWT seen in the video from around 30 parts (including washers for nuts). No need for battery, no need for inverter, only a simple (and cheap) water heater to be added to the heating system.

Anyway, what do you think why this kind of turbine system have not come up to light more intensly? Does it have some inherent problem with it?

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by wdyasq on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 01:39:31 PM MST
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"Anyway, what do you think why this kind of turbine system have not come up to light more intensly? Does it have some inherent problem with it?"

Yes, it doesn't work .....

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by electrondady1 on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 02:00:01 PM MST
(User Info)

since your proposed mill rotates at less that the speed of the wind
it is technically a wind mill not a turbine.

it's just an opinion but i think big verticals are just now coming into there own.
of course in the right location, you can get a much bigger return from your investment from a horizontal prop type devise.

just the swept area required is daunting to most builders.
if you want to build to the scale you have described you will need to structurally alter your house .
not everyone is willing or able to do that.

lets say your house is 1,000 sq.ft.
perhaps 31 ft. per side .
if you had a flat roof and could build a mill ten ft high it would sweep 310 sq ft.
that's a nice number!
but your not going to convince anyone it's a "colonial,spanish or Victorian style"
that's ok too,
it is the twenty-first century.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Akos on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:15:14 PM MST
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I would be ready to make a 2 meter (6,5 foot) high blade on a 4 meter (13 foot) axis. That would give me about 8 m2. But I would take into acount only one side of the mill because exactly what I am trying to do is to minimise the drag on the other side, so it even would be better to magically skip those area. Those squaremeters should not count into the swept area, should they.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 02:04:20 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

Looks like the mechanisms that rotate the blades will steal all of your power before you can use it.

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 02:15:58 PM MST
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I agree Woof

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by Akos on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:18:03 PM MST
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No, no, this is very small power needed there. While off-wind, the balanced blades can be moved almost effortlessly. It will be about right timing. (Just like pre-ignition on 4 stroke engines...)

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:28:31 PM MST
(User Info)

The problem is a wind turbine is not driven by a engine.Go ahead and build it and see.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 02:04:37 PM MST
(User Info)

Akos,

I used to believe I could build one for personal use of a patented technology.
NOT true, do some searching on it you will find they could come after you.
Reality; unlikely they will come after you unless you win the lottery or rich.
You must have something they can get to make it worth while suing you.
Could be a cease and desist order, risk contempt of court not complying, Jail.

Two details are missing,
One where is it patented and where are you.
If different countries... patents must be patented in each country they want protection or get a world patent $ (very often not done). If you patent in USA without world patent someone else can copy and sell it except in USA.

Lastly go back to the patent, they must reference similar technology. The feature you mention is something I read about more than 20 years ago. They may have made it work, thus the patent, so if you make it work differently its not covered by their patent.

If you're still in love with the design, tell them your an experimenter and would like to validate their design... need their permission to copy it. If they are not in production with it they may say OK.
Keep copy of OK. (you will not be allowed to sell it most likely).

Have fun,
Scott.

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Akos on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 03:05:37 PM MST
(User Info)

I am in Hungary (EU) and these guys are in Spain (EU too).
But they do not quaote their patent number. Weel, there is some interesting number on the bottom of one video, but no trace on the internet for that number.
I assume, for myself, I should be able to build one, at least, how the hack they would know about it at all (other than reading this thread and asking me to tell my address...)?

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 04:17:13 PM MST
(User Info)

Akos,
Easy enough to find it, go to Spain patent and search on their name...
Or just search on their name, patents usually come up.

I have run into people not willing to not tell me their patent information claiming its secret!
Nope, Patent is public information. I print it out and give them a copy next time I see them!-)
Got to have a little fun!

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ghurd on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 04:03:06 PM MST
(User Info)

Everyone is saying "it will not work" as it appears.
They are correct.
G-

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by windstuffnow (elenz(at)windstuffnow(dot)com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 05:46:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windstuffnow.com/main

If you build your own version of it, not following any patent drawings then it will be different from their version. They would have a difficult time defending something that isn't really theirs. The mechanism would be different as well as the wing design... I don't see a problem. If it was different enough your patent would simply list their patent as a similar device.

I'm not sure I would want a large turbine mounted to my house. It might be better to have it located in the general area, easy access but something large in a storm seems to attract damage and that would be the first thing to go while tearing at you home structure. For me my home is my safe haven, the storms come and go sometimes taking down the wind machines... they can be replaced easily.

I've had a small turbine on my roof for about 3 years now ( going on 4 winters ). It isn't physically attatched to the roof - it just sits there. If a wind strong enough comes through to take it off the damage will be minimul. Mine is very quiet except in storm winds above 50mph which I shut it down. One other problem I've had with it is its balance after a sleet storm or heavy snow fall with no wind... still spins good filled with snow/ice but it makes a heck of a rattle until a speed is reached that clears it or I physically remove the build up. Overall it's been the most reliable turbine I've ever installed. Even with 40 lbs of ice on it it still manages to pump electrons into my battery....

That particular version would be very inefficient for extracting energy although it would work. The problems I can see would be in storms and/or in higher winds. If you feather the wings sideways you've created a unit that will fly and feathering the wings into the wind will only create high loads on the building its attatched to... there isn't a good way to tame the beast short of removing the wings before the storm.

You might try building a small one to "experience" on a small scale the problems you may run into over time then decide on building a large one. Wuite often the "experience" part leads to new and better ideas.

For me its the journey, the destination is simply a bonus....

Have Fun! Windstuff Ed

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 05:53:46 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

I have another question . . .
How does it know which way the wind is coming from?
It would need some kinda mechanism to adjust the machine for wind direction. That is even more power needed to operate the machine.

W o o f -={(

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 06:01:09 PM MST
(User Info)

The blades will be pushed from one side when they should be deployed, the other when they should be edge-on to the wind. If their center of effort is a tad off axis that will provide all the power you need to flip them.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by electrondady1 on Fri Aug 22nd, 2008 at 07:08:35 PM MST
(User Info)

i like the idea of a horizontally hinged vane(on the upwind side ) as long as the wind could push the vanes back at an angle it would allow air to pass through,
increasing efficientcy.
the problem would be on the downwind side as all the vanes clatter back to their
energy gathering position
this is were modern materials might help.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by Akos on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 03:24:07 AM MST
(User Info)

You have to combine HAWT tail mechanism with this machine and you get a very simple - 5 parts - blade tilting solution (there is no need for additional motors or whatsoever). And again, if the tilting is happening while blades are paralell with the wind direction it should be effortless to turn them.

[ Parent ]

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by Stonebrain on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 05:58:20 AM MST
(User Info)

Powerbuoy had a somewhat similar design

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/31/13950/4278
Unluckily the pictures are no more there

Nice garden-ornament project

cheers,
stonebrain

Re: Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by Stonebrain on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 07:31:52 AM MST
(User Info)

Sorry,
the pics are there actually,just click on 'massive photo x',in the comments there is a nice pic of the gear too.

[ Parent ]

Fresh design idea of a VAWT onto my house | 26 comments (26 topical, 0 editorial)

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