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My Swirled VAWT Idea
By wooferhound, Section Wind Posted on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 04:37:17 PM MST
I don't think I've seen this idea before ?

OK now you guys have gone and done it to me, you've been talking about VAWTs. One link is leading me to other links and now I've seen 4 different stories about unusual VAWT designs.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/31/13950/4278
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/9/202615/3265
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/8/22/163958/000
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/14/133853/229
The ideas have been swirling in my head like a VAWT turning at 30 RPM and I came up with a super simple design that I don't think I've seen mentioned around here.

In this Top View, the Dark Blue lines are pipes or Square tubing would be better, The Purple Lines are Large Flat Panels that are hinged to the pipes. When the panels are going Upwind they are unfolded and pointed directly into the wind, or furled. As the panels rotate into the wind they will fold in and rest against their Supporting pipes, eventualy becoming Flat to the wind as the Working Panel. As the panels continue to rotate around the downwind side and back into the wind it will swing back out open to the wind. I hope the drawing can describe it better than my words.
A few of thoughts . . .
The panels should be very light to operate at high RPMs.
Centripedal force may prevent the panels from folding in properly
but this may be a way for it to furl.
The downwind panel is being shaded from the wind by the working panel
possibly interfering with the swing-out operation.
The centripedal force from the panel swinging out might give the system a little Kick.
Smaller Panels on longer arms may give better results.
Could be noisey
So I'm wondering . . . Will it fly ?

My Swirled VAWT Idea | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by zeusmorg on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 11:34:16 AM MST
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I think the basic problem is in how you have the panels hinged. the centripedal forces would make them always want to be in the outward position.

The biggest problem i see with folding panel VAWT's is the niose they would make "slapping" into position. Here's a down and dirty description of a similar device I've had bouncing around in my brain.

The wind force would act on the panels forcing them open and closed when in the respective positions, due to the offset of the pivot point, so no complicated gearing mechanism would be required.

Stops on the cross bracing would prevent the panels from going past the center point,when in fully closed position. I believe a design of this nature would increase the efficiency of a VAWT greatly, at the expense of keeping everyone awake for several city blocks!

There is also the problem of side stress due to all the loading being on one side during rotation.

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Akos on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 03:33:49 AM MST
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You think something like this probably.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvkjMrNIJqs

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Stonebrain on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 01:00:09 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes it will.

Will it be fun to make? Yes

Can it be an 'eyecatcher'? yes

Will it be efficient for generating energy? no

just my opinion..

cheers,
stonebrain

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Norm (peppysue@suite224.net) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 01:58:49 PM MST
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Hey Woof....think you'll get any 'usable power'?
(tongue in cheek)
( :>) Norm

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by oztules (oztules__at__bigpond.com) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 04:19:40 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Oztules-toys

Woof,
It will work best... if you never build it and keep it on paper..... bit like the fish that got away... it was huge, a monster I tell ya... big big.. huge ..... :-)

oztules
Flinders Island Australia

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by vacuum1313 (vacuum1313atyahoo.ca) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 04:46:41 PM MST
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A fancy version of a savonius rotor, high torque, low efficiency and with flapping vanes noisy as hell.
Vacuum1313; It can be done!

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 05:38:31 PM MST
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Hi Woof and Zuess

The only way to learn is to build your ideas and go on from there.

It's a fun process.

Mark

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by jonas302 on Sat Aug 23rd, 2008 at 08:13:12 PM MST
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Thats a good point Mark so what if it doesn't work sure it will use up time and money but maybe someone will get it just right

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Akos on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 04:55:06 AM MST
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If talking about continuously adjsted flaps/sails.
How about this company?
http://www.eolprocess.com/

He seems to be on the right track of harnessing maximum energy from VAWT. It should be quite high performance just by judging it from here:
http://www.eolprocess.com/Procede.php

It spins OK:
http://www.eolprocess.com/Video6MinutesM6.php
What do you think?

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Stonebrain on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 08:58:18 AM MST
(User Info)

It's really very nice.

The idea goes for tsr < 1,that means the 'sails' are moving slower then the windspeed,
the blades are alternatively 'sailing' upwind and downwind.

If you're going to do a design for tsr > 1,the blades are sailing upwind all the way around.In fact,that's a darius.

The bigger the tsr,the less it will need adjustment of the blades.

Personally I'm thinking of a kind of darius,with 'passive' adjustment.
If you make the 'sails' of a darius some kind of flexible they will be 'pushed' in a better position just by the pressure of the wind.
Well,that's what I hope.Probably there are some problems I don't think of yet.

Any way,the mechanics needed for ajusting the blades in the exemples you mentioned is a real handicap for this kind of design.

cheers,
stonebrain

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Stonebrain on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 09:11:17 AM MST
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In fact,that's what I like about woofers design:it's kind of passive,no need for more complicated mechanics.

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Akos on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 12:56:49 PM MST
(User Info)

Are you 100% sure, this is tsr<1 ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXezZvMMT28

Anyway, I still think there are too many blades on it...
Three should be enough. On three different level above each other. This guy seems to be understanding the basics of his own concept, but fails to optmise it I think. Back side of his design gets no wind at all, despite of having efficiently tilted blades.
(Similar to my thinking is the WINgD Mill, which is shown on a video I have recorded 2 years ago.)

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by Stonebrain on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 01:18:03 PM MST
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I'm quite sure tsr<1.If not,the blades moving downwind are in the wrong position.The video is taken on a very windy day.I don't know what the guy is saying(I don't have sound).
Anyway from the figures you gave in your comment this is completely clear.They explain like a sailboat sailing in a circle.

cheers,
stonebrain

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by spinner (itsmejonny@email2me.net) on Mon Sep 29th, 2008 at 07:36:10 AM MST
(User Info)

rule of thumb on a vawt is tsr=1
while it is true that some do achieve more, units like my dual helix are still: tsr=1.
experience has hammered home one fact to me: design it for sufficient torque then find a workable way to gear it up for more speed if ya need it.
note: generator design can help the thing work better at the speeds it produces.
note: when you gear for speed you need more torque than you do for 1 to 1 gearing
spinner

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by DanB (danb@*no spam*otherpower.com) on Sun Aug 24th, 2008 at 11:38:42 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.otherpower.com/

I expect it'll fly woof but... Im not terribly optimistic ;-)
There are a few similar (not identical) machines in our 'playlist' of 'interesting' wind turbine videos: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7A07DF48D4809E02

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by powerbuoy on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 at 07:02:48 AM MST
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Woof, ... it will turn, it will be slow and unless it is gigantic not much power will come from it, ...just my opinion, sorry.

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Seedler on Mon Aug 25th, 2008 at 04:55:15 PM MST
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I remember seeing a turbine called the WindHog, cant seem to find anything on the Internet about it any more.

It was a massive machine, basically your design. It had a very low rpm, but had massive torque. Apparently it could power 100kw generators.

My dad made something similar years ago with reflectors to scare crows off the corn. It was basic but the design does work.

Dee

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Akos on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 12:49:48 PM MST
(User Info)

The mentioned WingdMill stuff...
Just to make a record of it and also to discuss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEeAiuIL8Ew

[ Parent ]

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by colej (colej@castle-ranch.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:53:13 PM MST
(User Info)

I build something like this as a kid years ago and it worked as a whirlygig until the bashing and smashing tore it apart. My mom wanted me to put some kind of whistle on it to drown out the metal panels slapping against the frame, it disintegrated in a florida storm one day so she was pleased. She called it the worlds ugliest wind chime.

Now something like Ed Lenz's design with a slight rotation of the blades that would improve the airfoil as it rotated, maybe something like that could be incorporated in your design.

BTW - since I'm new to "real" turbine designs and thinking of producing power instead of annoying wind chimes and ugly whirlygigs, can someone tell me what "TSR" is? I keep seeing this term in relation to efficiency and have no clue.

Re: My Swirled VAWT Idea (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by colej (colej@castle-ranch.com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 06:06:12 PM MST
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Howdy Woof,
After thinking about your idea most of the night, I came up with this modification that may overcome the drawbacks of the upwind drag. This idea uses your "folding" wing idea and is capturing the wind energy not only on the downwind side, but also a little bit of force from the wing in the rear acting like an airfoil. I got the idea today when I saw a machine running with an articulating cable tray (like on CNC machines) these cable trays are many links that make up a race and they only bend in one direction and are stiff as a board in the other (called "Goretrac" or Nylatrac). If you were to make a wing of this sort of articulation, maybe the drag would be reduced to a bare minimum. it would still flap from one side to the other, but maybe it would work.
I'm going to lay hands on some of that material and build a model as soon as i can. I'll let you know how it goes.

lay out two equal lengths of Goretrac with dowels of some sort to keep them seperate then cover the dowels with a flexible durable fabric to bend with the Goretrac. it'll be stiff with the wind and flexible against.

My Swirled VAWT Idea | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial)

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