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US has a third world electric grid
By dnix71, Section Rants & Opinion Posted on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:08:38 AM MST
That is preventing the expansion of wind generated electricity

http://www.wind-watch.org/news/?p=17329
Texas and California are the exceptions. The US grid wasn't made to transmit bulk power over long distances. So, if we want to use the wind in the Dakotas for electricity, we will have to move there first.

US has a third world electric grid | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by wdyasq on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 06:59:35 PM MST
(User Info)

Just don't build it where I can see it. And if I can see it you need to pay me! You will be ruining my scenery. Don't forget, I want lower rates on my 'lectricity too! Soak those rich folks ... give it to the poor.

Politicians are so nice to their subjects and always share their wealth (in thier dreams which we know as nightmares).

Ron

AND, BTW, the Texas grid is not up to date. However, the laws in Texas do favor energy providers over dim-wits.
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 07:35:58 PM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

""You will be ruining my scenery. ""

That was tongue in cheek, right?

I wish I had windmills for scenery instead of the stupid ocean.
Andy
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by wdyasq on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:03:38 PM MST
(User Info)

There might have been a bit of tongue in cheek, but maybe not.

I get quite upset at the attitude some have 'we don't want that nasty oil refinery in our area' and bitch about the high price, bitch about the possible polution and just generally bitch. If it weren't an oil refinery, it might be a nuke plant, or windmills. But they still want and demand the nicer things in life...... as long at it doesn't require sacrifice on thier part. - and it can be had at a low price. They woudl like it to be American made .... but don't want to pay the wages for the American made craft. But they will complain about the factories being moved 'offshore' while they stand in line to buy a Chinese television, Vietnamese 'shrimp' (really prawns but they are too stupid to know that) and a pair of shoes made in India, "They just don't make good American shoes anymore you know."

Now that some whales are off the endangered species list, we can start using them as a renewable resource by turning them into bio-diesel. "Hey, I get 40,000 miles a whale!" one might brag. Of course, there would be a fight as to where we could put the whale refinery!

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:34:24 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

haha almost fell off my chair. you are so right....im still laughing HA
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:48:19 PM MST
(User Info)

"haha almost fell off my chair. you are so right.... "

I almost fell out of my chair and I'm strapped into the thing! Almost made me mad enough to actually be able to kick some a** ! I often wish those with such narrow-minded or "easily influenced opinion-challenged" attitudes could be made to suddenly do without. HELP, I suddenly entered the Twilight Zone and I'm in the wrong paralell-Earth! This totally ruins all the strong language restraint I had to practice around my kids.
Rural McG
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by richhagen (richhagen (a t) Juno.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:22:23 AM MST
(User Info)

I actually like my Danner Boots Ron. :-) Still, we will get the future that we build. Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by frackers (g8ecj at *nospam* gilks dot org) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 03:34:15 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.gilks.org

When I was in the UK we called them NIMBYs

Not I My Back Yard

I think every major project - energy, road, rail etc - has to fight them...
Robin - Down Under (or are you Up Over)
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Chagrin on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 07:19:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Not to diminish from the article you linked to, the gallery at that site has some pretty cool pictures of turbine failures.

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by jonas302 on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:20:56 PM MST
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When they shut down every powerplant in the midwest I would worry about a national grid upgrade land is cheap in the Dakotas if power was cheap they might attract more business

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Bruce S (bruce(dot)stahl <at>gmail (dot)(com)) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:55:26 AM MST
(User Info)

What was nice to read was the Energy department seems to "get it" at least...a little.

I have an idea, when the grid gets to producing too much, how about backing off some of the coal ?
Can't hurt to try, and may put just a little less particulates in the air :).

just a thought.

Cheers
Bruce S

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by scorman (scorman@stny.rr.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 07:24:14 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.greenpowertalk.org/showthread.php?t=6170

I'll diverge from the general "piss-n-moan" chorus to what I feel is a very real inadequacy in the basic design of residential grid service that nobody seems to have mentioned:

All industry uses three phase supply, while residential service is restricted to single phase ....all the motors that drive furnace blowers, heat pumps, frig/freezer compressors, air conditioners, etc are all wasting probably 1/3 of the electricity to run them. The three phase motors also require lower amperage per leg, therefore less copper wire for major hookups, which was not an issue when copper was cheap.

The construction of three phase motors is simplier (cheaper? less copper?) ...no capacitor, no centrifugal switch start mechanism ...more reliable service
It was probably a arbitrary decision made in US just after Tesla convinced the world about AC vs DC ??

We are talking about savings of 1/3 of the major electric consumption in a residence...this is NOT insignificant...but we will have to live with it!

Slightly OT: I recently replaced a 40+ year old Sears 22cuft chest freezer with a brand new model for $400 ...it only runs at 1+amp ie 130 watts and reduced my consumption to 1/5 ...at $0.12/Kwhhr, it will cost me $36/yr vs $172 or a three year payback ...didn't realize the extreme until I got a Kill-A-Watt meter!

Now I am looking for a fractional hp DC motor to drive my squirrel cage blower in the domestic hot air system to replace the standard AC 1/3hp been running for 30+ years.
Need to determine wattage vs rpm of that unit.

Stew Corman from sunny Endicott

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by DDT77 on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:10:29 PM MST
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I might say, however, that the transformers needed for three phase add expense and losses to the system as well. As many of the motors in appliances now have a converter hung between the motor and the utility anyway, these machines are more and more going to three phase anyway. The trend is away from single phase induction machines to three phase PM machines, so a drive is needed.

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by thefinis (thefinis@hotmail.com) on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 08:43:46 AM MST
(User Info)

What you seem to forget is that it takes twice as many lines on the power poles for 3 phase. This might not be a problem with urban areas but is a big factor with rural lines where meters are generally farther apart. My guess is that the power loss from extra lines and transformers would offset much or all of the savings and the extra investment and upkeep are a strike against it for smaller power users.

Like most solutions to problems the solution comes with its own problems.

Finis

Texas born and bred
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by thefinis (thefinis@hotmail.com) on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 08:35:59 AM MST
(User Info)

What a bunch of manure on some of that website. I only watched the one video about protecting Texas. If they compare an oil field to a wind farm they would choose to live in the wind farm any day. What is not really covered in much of this is how much the landowners get paid per turbine or the fact that if you sign a lease without getting what you want in it then you are the one to blame. You don't hear much fussing from the ranch owners who have the turbines only from the ones that didn't get them. Side note on this is that one large landowner in Abilene joined in a law suit against the wind farms then got offered a lease from a wind farm on another piece of his property, one guess on what he did. A lot of the bitching seems to be similar to folks that buy or build a home near an airport and then fuss about the noise or buy a lot in a subdivision and then complain about all the neighbors being too close.

There is a very real problem with the national grid and building wind farms etc is only adding to the problems. We need the grid reworked and large transmission lines built but that was needed even before large wind farms came into being.

Finis
Texas born and bred

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 05:33:51 PM MST
(User Info)

The last thing we need is an interstate transmission superhighway!
Why? Just because some Local problem?

To compare US to other countries is like comparing Apples to oranges.
US uses LARGE power plants in central locations sending power Hundreds of miles.
Europe uses many small power plants sending few miles.
Europe uses co-generation. Manufacturing plants needing heat are next store to power plants using the waste heat. Not done in US except some trial plants. Too much trouble.
Anybody read about ohms law? Ok, lets build it out of super conductors!

Next thing we will be sending water from the great lakes down south.
Oh, we are.

Homes use plenty of energy, yet many off grid examples to suggest it would be cheaper to take down the power lines and get over it.
Problem is what would big business have to do with it?
You know it our societies responsibility to make executives rich over it!

Have fun,
Scott.

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by TomW on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 07:17:00 PM MST
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Scott;

Oh, yeah. Decentralization makes way more sense on almost every level except making MegaCorp [TM] rich.

Much higher security with a spread out system. Much better disaster recovery. So no racoon can take out the whole NE US and adjacent Canadians.

I agree the power grid is a mess and needs an upgrade but the upgrade should be an overhaul where bigger is not considered better.

If California cannot pull its cranium from its rectum and build power plants then they can go without in my opinion kind of deal.

This country has a tendency to think bigger is better and in this case it is not the answer in my opinion.

I think local folks with a resource like wind water or whatever could band together and do it now. Not a simple task but if folks followed a few simple guidelines power could be made available without the massive plants.

Not a popular opinion to those who feel some inherent right to "megawatts on demand".

We got into this by following the easy path. The way out is a bit more of a challenge.

Just my humble opinion as I waste watts online tonight.We pulled in a nice 28 amps most of the day today so its no big deal even if we were off grid which we are about 1/3 rd of the way to achieving in an all electric house heated with wood and passive solar.

I cannot make idiots think nor can I force choices to do things right on a global or continental scale. All I can do is affect my little corner of things. Thats what I do.

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 02:12:29 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

I don't think that 'Europe' is as homogeneous or short-range as you suggest.

For example, a lot of power in the UK is shipped down to London and Cornwall from hundreds of miles further north (I can dig out URLs for the transmission-flow maps if you would like), and indeed more will be coming all the way down from the top of Scotland in wind and the like.

Sweden/Norway/Denmark/Germany ship a lot of power between themselves to make use of their combination of wind, hydro and nuclear. Denmark couldn't sustain its >20% wind power in its grid without those long transmission links.

I think more transmission is a often good thing (in conjunction with conservation and much more RE) because it makes better use of existing plant and means that less can run on standby for a given capacity.

And cities simply don't have the space to generate their own power by RE for example; it is too diffuse. If you want to get people off burning coal for heat/electricity for example, that energy is going to have to be shipped in, and electricity transmission is a pretty 'clean' way to do so.

All IMHO of course.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by ghurd on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 11:54:33 AM MST
(User Info)

I don't think Europeans understand the scales here in the states.
And I am not entirely convinced most Americans do.

"Denmark couldn't sustain its >20% wind power in its grid without those long transmission links."

Denmark and long? Denmark can't have a "long transmission" in US terms.

Scott's "apples and oranges".

Denmark is less than twice the size of Ted Kennedy's tiny little insignificant Massachusetts. Denmark is about 1/10th the size of California.
From wiki: A perfect circle enclosing the same area as Denmark would have a circumference of only 742 kilometres (461 mi).
That's little more than half the driving distance from California's southern to northern borders.
The Hoover dam's transmission lines (circa 1935!) carry power to L.A. 462 kilometres (287 miles), or about twice the diameter of that Denmark circle.

I drive 1050km (650 miles) to visit my sister. I only cross 3 states borders, because she lives just past the last one.
I drive 1100km (700 miles), then go another 300km (200 miles) in a sea-plane to go fishing.
Once I drove 1700km (1050 miles), in one day, to Disneyland. (now we fly!)
My father-in-law drives 3550km (2200 miles) to see his son.
Gosh. I drove more than 461 miles so my wife could meet Steven King for a couple hours.
Those distances are one way.

In 2006 (BTS numbers), the US had 13,551,624 lane-km (8,420,589 lane-miles) of roads. Most of it has 'wires'.

Rewiring the US is going to take a lot of wire. And money.
That's all I am saying.

I read the US figures it has $50 billion ear-marked to rebuild Iraq.
And Iraq has $80 billion of oil money it has no idea what to do with.
Maybe Iraq should rebuild itself (it IS their fault they need rebuilt).
Then the US can re- ear-mark that $50 billion for updating her own grid!
G-

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 12:28:57 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

"Long" as in "spanning Scandinavia and Northern Europe".

The US has about 5 or 6 times the population of the UK (which would squeeze into Illinois by land area at a guess) and uses about 10 times the electricity I think (I'm guessing a US peak capacity of ~800GW).

The whole of the EU however is maybe 50% larger in population terms than the US, though probably has a smaller total electricity generation capacity and consumption than the US, and is in many ways as bizarre and fragmented as the US grid I guess.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by ghurd on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 01:53:39 PM MST
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We use (as in waste) far too much power.
No one can explain to me why a janitor flicks a single switch lighting 50,000^2 feet to sweep 120^2 foot offices, one at a time.
I have asked. Most often the explaination is "installing switches is expensive". That must be the advanced definition of 'stupid'.

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 02:02:09 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Doubling the price of electricity a couple of times would help make not installing the switches clearly expensive even to the most myopic and sociopathic execs and bean counters... B^>

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 01:21:16 PM MST
(User Info)

DamonHD,
Sorry if I painted the wrong picture.
Yes, Outside of US in Europe particularly has the longest power line etc. several of them.
They also have many smaller power plants, then USA...
Power transmission loses are estimated at 7-10% (found different numbers around)
By moving the loads closer to the source improves efficiency.
Not by building bigger transmission lines.
We are talking about change, either in manufacturing location or grid improvement or where power is produced.

Homes and vehicles consume 70% of the energy used in the USA.
Homes use 2/3 of the energy. Agreed? Vehicles 1/3 (wonder why all the focus on cars?)
Yes many homes in cities, more are not.
I believe the power used by homes should be addressed before doing anything else, especially since a small investment can make a drastic reduction in power use!

IF I was offered the same deals as the government sponsored grid improvements I could go off grid. Not only off grid Off everything! No gas, nothing. Net zero energy home and vehicle.

Looking at the numbers, solar is available up to 20% efficiency. (32% with mirrors)
I use 30kwHr/day. 10 ft x 30 ft solar panel should supply everything I need.
Replacing appliances could drop it down to 8-10kwhr/day easily. Or 10 ft x 10 ft panel.
Converting to EV, what do I need? http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf
Suggest 3 to 6 miles per KwHr. Interesting. Lets use 4 mi/Kwhr.
GM posted the average ride to work is 40 miles round trip. Or 10kwHr/day.
Doubling the solar panel to 10 ft x 20 ft total!
Hot water 4 ft x 8 ft supplies 60-90%
How much for heating? Assuming 60% efficiency (too high?)
My 92% 76KBTU/hr furnace runs 4-6 hr many winter days, once 23.5 hr when -23F.
Heat per day" 6 x 72KBTU = 432KBTU
Solar heat per day 1,000BTU/ft2 or need 432 ft2 solar heat collector = 20 ft x 21 ft
My house or Roof is bigger than the above needs of 664 ft. Not many smaller?
Edit: Oops forgot collectors efficiency, got to go, consulting work to do.

Back up energy is required, could be grid or gas of some kind.
Even in cities homes are plenty large enough. Apartment building may have a problem, then most have large parking areas to offer for the energy production.

My numbers are based on my homes needs here in Michigan. Will change based on location.

Manufacturer have their own special needs, most have huge parking areas outside of making cement they may be able to locally produce their own power. Co-generation works.

I do not see much use for a grid, let along spending trillions fixing the current one.
Thanks for your comments!

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 01:30:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Hi,

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of distributed generation (and hope to go electricity-neutral at home within months), but for the UK at least RE generation still seems to look better done at a macro level with a supporting grid, eg see:

http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/07/21/micro-generation-the-emperor-new-clothes/

The Zerocarbonista man (Dale Vince) runs a pure-wind 'green' UK supplier, and I happen to be a customer.

As to domestic vs other consumption of electricity, see in the 'Links' section of my draft doc http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-dynamic-demand-value.html

"DUKES": Digest of UK Energy Statistics notes amongst many other things that: in 2006, domestic electricity consumption was 29% of all UK demand of 406TWh (ie about 116TWh), of which only about 33% was on Ecomony 7 or another off-peak/grid-friendly tariff. Mean domestic electricity power demand was thus ~13GW, most of it potentially not 'off-peak'.

DUKES is the UK gov's official exec summary, as it were.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:20:27 AM MST
(User Info)

DamonHD,

The cost analysis of solar vs wind vs nuclear are messed up when you add the cost of a New grid to make use of it.

Next Town over is putting in 20 miles new transmission lines, cost estimated at $15 millions. These are not even big lines. Going with larger lines must cost more? Still working on right of ways two years.
The lines are going into GM test facility, employees 4,000 people. The lines are a third redundant power feed. Three years ago they lost power for a day and still pissed about it.

Macro power generation looks good cost wise until adding in the upgrade cost necessary to the transmission grid. Part of the system cost. Micro generation starts looking more attractive.
Loosing 10% to transmission changes the equations.

Recently a company started production of a $1/w solar cell, first 18 months sold out.
If solar panels were produced in volume to be put on homes... how would the economics change?

Prior post was using the numbers for total energy. Home energy can be used in many forms.
Newest generation heat pumps are looking attractive even for Michigan!

The final comment of micro vs macro.
Micro has a fixed cost over a period of time. Mostly up front, little after.
Macro power will forever have to new bill to pay!!! Always going UP!
Which fits in your wallet?

Having fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:17:29 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Hi,

A lot of 'macro' can be installed in smaller blocks near to consumption centres retaining the cost savings from scale but often significantly reducing (maybe halving according to Ecotricity) the transmission costs. Clearly that doesn't help where the RE resource is nowhere near, but that's not always going to be the case.
By my estimation most of the cost of domestic PV microgen is the installation cost of having skilled workers mucking around on your property, not breaking things and meeting building codes. Even if the PV was free it would still be more expensive than macro PV or wind if I'm right. Hasn't stopped me putting lots of PV on my house, with more to come I hope, but if you're a government with a fixed $Xm to spend, where should the bulk of it go for the greatest concrete effect?
Macro and micro both require amortised maintenance. I can't find Dale's numbers right now, but I think that a 2MWp turbine might cost £2m to install (£1/Wp) and cost ~£10k/year in maintenance, ie much less than 1% of capital cost per year, over a 20+ year life. I may have those figures wrong, but note that you'd do well to have microgen running for 20 years with maintenance cost/time less than 1% of install costs if you include your own time at a fair rate cleaning panels, checking meters, or whatever. I can't see a real difference in cost profile here.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by tomtmook on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 08:42:29 PM MST
(User Info)

I always figured if the Canadians were smart they'd be building nuke plants way up north and piping it down to the US. Keep the loon worth more than the dollar.

Build the plants up where it's too cold for even the Inuit's. And if somebody messes with the plant the radiation won't cause another Chernobyl.

When they're done with it they can store the spent uranium in those big holes they're digging to get that mud they squeeze oil out of.

While on the subject, I recall reading somewhere that the spent rods can be re-processed and used in a slightly different electric generation method. End result being less spent fuel to store. Apparently the Europeans do it but here in the US it's too costly, cheaper to store the waste.

I had to laugh, this summer while vacationing on Cape Cod, I learned that good ole Ted Kennedy has been blocking attempts to put a windfarm off the Hiannis shoreline (nimby). Reminded me of the ruckus closer to home off the Delaware shore. Nobody wants their view spoiled.

I always thought those complaints were a bit ludicrous. Last year I attended a trade show in Palm Springs. If all the wealthy yukkety-yuks don't mind a valley full of windmills, why should we complain here on the east coast?

Personally, I thought they looked pretty cool.

Re: US has a third world electric grid (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Sun Aug 31st, 2008 at 02:16:46 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

In the US you are forbidden by law to reprocess in a way which would get 100x to 1000x more energy from each kg of fuel, IIRC, and would leave much less nasty stuff to store afterwards. Carter put the law in place because he was worried about proliferation, etc, I think.

Without reprocessing nukes are going to go dark in a few decades since I believe that we've probably passed 'Peak Uranium' or a close to.

So, that reprocessing law is gonna have to be fixed ASAP.

I'm not sure that here in Europe (and note that different bits of Europe have very different views, etc) we do what we should be to stretch that fuel either.

Rgds

Damon

[ Parent ]

US has a third world electric grid | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial)

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