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at last a twin rotor


By blueyonder, Section Mechanical
Posted on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 12:43:36 AM MST
 looks ok

  at long last i got myself a twin rotor .
  its been a while in the making.
  it started as a brake drum and small ceramic rotor.
  then it went to a single rotor 8 mags six coils.
   and now its got 16 mags.

  this is fitted with a six foot prop.
   its more of a mini mill really . but has given me much pleasure in the building.
   its had meny mods done to it .
  so its moving along at a slower pace than just building it from plans.

   learning is the key.  and im sure a 8foot one .that is planned for the future
  will be made in much the same way. but i think much faster.
   other mods i got to do i beef up the studding holding the stator.
   it just gos on .more and more bits to sort out.
   but a great hobby for me . and at the end it will  make itself very useful.
   i dont consider the tower as part of a hobby. but its sumthing you cant do without.

    in the photos the stator is from my first attempt. so its not wound for it.
    my next job. tidy up and get the shack ready for coil winding.
    it will be much better this time making a test coil.  as i understand what
  its all about.
   lots of scrap bits used in the making of this.
    but also lots of bits i paid for.

  excuse the white prop with many black hand prints.
    sumhow my hands are always oily  .
   so far its runs very well. turns in a whisper of wind.
    its a mini turbine but its so heavy.  thats without the tail boom.
    the back rotor is locked on with a nut.   i will add lock tight to all
  bits that can come loose
    i will add pics as to how the prop is fixed. as a matter of interest .
  as yet i dont know how much gap i will need . in the pics its pretty close.
  but turns clear.
   sumtimes i want to take a few pics. but my hands are so oily i dont.
    now im getting to the clean bits will be nice.

    only thing is i cant take it indoors at night .(to study)
    never mind it wont be long now. soon be a flyer.

 








 its not the fastest thing i built -time wise. but has given me great pleasure.

 would i build another one. yes just as soon as this one is finished.

at last a twin rotor | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 at 07:15:14 PM MST
(User Info)

Great wind-gen! I'm jealous. (I live in the city)

It looks like sliding glass doors behind it, are you going to make a builditsolar.com hot-air collector?



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by blueyonder (windwoodgood at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 03:44:03 PM MST
(User Info)

  hi spinning magnets .
   i tried a general reply to the posts.
   it would be better if i could reply to all. but i dont think it can be done.

 sorry i missed out a bit you said about the glass window unit  
  yep you sure are right.   i have allready played with a small solar water heater.
  was so impressed with the very hot water out.

   so i am collecting more bits to build a bigger one.
   i might not get hot or warm water 12 months of the year.
  but its sumthing i got to build. (in my spare time).
  i might not get hot water in winter but at least i dont need air-con in summer.
its a ill wind that dos no good
[ Parent ]



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Sun Aug 3rd, 2008 at 08:27:48 PM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

Atta boy blue!

Looks like nice tight mechanical clearance.
And you can be proud of those fingerprints on the blades.
Andy



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Flux on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 12:18:22 AM MST
(User Info)

Quite an interesting mechanical construction with the blades on one side of the hub and the alternator on the other. That is one of the versions I would never have thought of.

Looks a nice machine and it should work well. Your alternator is very close to one I built for use with a buck converter, it should do very well in low winds but you may have stall in the higher winds.

Try increasing air gap first and see if you can raise the cut in speed as far as possible without too much loss of low wind performance. When you have got that optimum then you may need to add a bit of resistance in the line but at 12v it may not need it.

Let us know the results.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by David HK on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 01:45:35 AM MST
(User Info)

STOP!  Wait a minute, and then check and then think carefully.

I noticed that there is one large nut at the rear holding the magnet / stator assembly on.

Have you locked this nut in such a way that it can never unscrew against the turning direction? Left hand and right hand threads against turning diection etc.  You should know what I mean.

Otherwise well done and keep us informed about power output etc,

David HK



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by David HK on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 01:50:15 AM MST
(User Info)

STOP (again).

Take a close look at the nuts that hold the coil casting on. Can they unscrew themselves?

I would hate to all that beautiful work destroyed because not enough attention was paid to these crucial features.

Keep checking the whole machine - this the good thing about posting photographs.

David HK



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by tecker on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 01:38:51 PM MST
(User Info)

It looks a little spindly on the stator thread . Looks as though it won't deform with the blades aft but the alternator will drag a quick highspeed twist . That looks like 5/16 go to 5/8  .3" long 5/8 thread  takes more Than 150 lbs torque  5/16 is around  than 25 lbs .The stator itself is probably 15 lbs . Some t braces on the stator support is a good idea.

[ Parent ]


Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 07:53:45 PM MST
(User Info)

One thing that has bugged me about these radial designs is that the stator isn't well supported against rotational forces - which is where it's loaded.

Structures like this are strong in compression and tension, but not in bending or torsion.  Forces should be along the length of at least one straight piece, not at right angles to a single support.  Single supports - especially thin ones - should not be twisted.  Joints that may be pushed in more than one direction should be supported in at least two directions in two-D, three directions in three-D, so the supports can divide the load such that they're only loaded in compression or tension.  The members should be connected to form triangles and pyramids, not squares or arms - especially arms with bends.

So think of them as if they had springy flexible joints where they make a corner or are fastened to another member.  How do they bend?

In these designs you have a star of thin radial strips, with allthread at right angles on their ends, supporting a disk that is TWISTED by the main load.  OOPS!

 - When under a torque load the strips are in torsion and act like springs, while the allthread rods act like levers.  The twisting stator is pulled toward the downwind rotor while enormous leverage on the allthread rods tries to fracture the stator where they are attached to it.

 - When loaded along the axis, the strips act like springs in bending, allowing the stator to move in either direction and contact one rotor or the other.  Further, there will be some frequency where it resonates.  Vibration at this frequency will "pump up" a mechanical oscillation until it bounces between the rotors and friction there takes out vibrational energy faster than it is added.  If this frequency happens to match the "singing" at some RPM you're toast.

Seems to me there are a couple things that could be done to fix this.

First:  Stiffen the supports:  Weld on a support against along-axis bending and torsion, making them into a T or L cross-section.  They can be made ever stronger by making the strip and/or the support roughly triangular - wider at the hub than near the attachment of the allthreads.  Alternatively you could use three rods or angle-irons to form a thin pyramid, being sure that they don't all have their planes parallel if they're sheet metal.

Second:  Stiffen the allthreads against the helical analog of the "parallelogram collapse" mode of a square of supports by running a strip from the base of each to a point near the stator's attachment, forming triangles.  This brace will be even stiffer if it can't fold up - which can be done by using an "angle iron" shape rather than a strap.  (Alternatively you could brace in two directions with strip so at least one of each set of braces will be loaded in tension and not subject to fold-up failure modes.)



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Flux on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 01:22:38 PM MST
(User Info)

I agree about this, it will be ok if you don't use a brake switch but if you do the thing will move like crazy. Many look too weak but this one looks particularly fragile.

I once shorted one phase of a 1kW alternator during a bench test and it was rather frightening when the spring balance and torque measuring kit went flying. A full 3 phase short is very severe indeed.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by lglagasse on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:00:37 AM MST
(User Info)

blueyonder:

You have done a nice job in both design and workmanship. You have given the stator lots of room for air cooling.

I tend to agree with tecker and flux concerning the strenght of the stator mounts.

Check out the Dan's 17 ft. designs old and new on this forum. Reinforced stator mounts on the new design.

I have reinforced my stator mounts to try to strengthen rotational torque. Hope these pics help.
lglagasse



pic # 82 is my original design.

pic # 264A is reinforced design



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by blueyonder (windwoodgood at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 05:18:28 PM MST
(User Info)

thank you guys for the comments.
  i did say in my first post i got to beef up the studding.
  but after reading the advice about the stator torque.
  which to be honest wasent aware just how strong it can get.
  and also putting the brake on in a howling gale.
  i was going to modify the stator holding brackets anyway.

  but now i am going to rethink on how to make it good.real good.
  as yet i havent had a mill running .so know nuthing about the power out
 or torque made as it generates.

  so its good i am thinging ahead to when its grunting a bit.
   it wasent meant to work two rotors and with the small studding honest..

  now to reply to each.
   spinning magnets .i to get envy  when looking at mills made here.
   but at least i am doing one myself now.
   maybe in the future you can build a nice gen sum ware.
   as your so interested maybe a friend or family member might want you to build one  
   for them.  who knows how lucky you might get.

   david hk.  yes your right spindly studding .
   stator isent made yet so just put it all together to check out how the shaft was                  
   fitting.
   the large nut on the back i might make into a castle nut.
   the back rotor wont ever fall off. as it pulls itself to the front one.

   thanks Andy. i just need make sure i wash my hands real good.
   before going to bed at night.

 hi lglagasse.  working on a good way to hold the stator tight.
    will post a pic of how i modify it. and ask for comments as to its
    strength etc

    hi tecker like every one else said .to spindly.  yes i agree .

   ungrounded -l-rod.
  a verry good page you posted.
   verry interesting reading. it made me do a bit of new type logic thinking.
    i have tried running it at 800 rpm in the lathe and it was verry calm.
    so the thing wasent under load. and had no prop. but seamed ok.

   hi flux as you also said  . i know a thing works ok on the bench but in real
   conditions its a different  story.
   am a working on it boss.
   now flux i have been testing coils .
   and with the info you gave me i got my lathe running at 220 rpm.
   my cut in speed.
    two strands 16awg and around 55 turns. it was spot on .
   or as thay say here right in the ball park.
    also tried the 14awg . it was over valtage at 55 turns.
    so would have ended up with skiny coils using the 14awg.
   so again you give sum great advice.
   and i put it to the test and was great spot on mate.
   hope i havent forgot to do a reply to any one.

    and as i said in the beginning of the post .i will put sum pics of the shaft.
    should anyone be interested to make comments on it.
    but you need to see the pics first .
    the thread at both ends is metric. its 20mm.

    also made a spacer to fit between the rotors .
    so at 1/2" min air gap i can put a spacer in to make it as wide as i need.
   two bits at the front hold the prop with a  20mm nut on each.
    also three bits studding go through the prop aswell to lock every thing tight .
    the nose cone has a 20mm threaded hole in the back so just screws on.

    i might have a go making castle nuts. 20mm is hard to find lock nuts.
   now to post a few pics.
   if you see any probs with shaft .dont hold back .
   well no one held back saying about the skinny bolts holding the stator.lol.











  just saw a pic with a white painted rotor.

   the idea being it might just help it stay a bit cooler. in strong sunshine.
   but more like it will have dirty hand prints on it verry soon.
   i think i will paint stator as well.
its a ill wind that dos no good



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by tecker on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 07:29:15 PM MST
(User Info)

This design is impressive the front bearings take the wieght off the alternator I like the idea of a long shaft it has got to be stronger and smoother .



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by hiker (hiker.wild[at]yahoo[dot]com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 02:52:00 PM MST
(User Info)

nice work !!!
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]


Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by TheCasualTraveler (a.miklos@yahoo.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 08:12:33 PM MST
(User Info) http://thecasualtraveler.com/wind.htm

Hey Blue,

     I wanted to ask about how you keep the two magnet rotors aligned. I think my design follows yours somewhat in that I have a center shaft as opposed to the five bolts like we see on the wheel hub design. For that reason I only have magnets on one steel disc so that alignment didn't matter. The second disc was only steel no magnets. But it looks like on your dual rotor you only have one nut holding the rotors on the center shaft and I'm wondering how the alignment went. I'm lousy at explaining these things, did that make sense?
Andy



Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by tecker on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 01:26:41 AM MST
(User Info)

Magnets have strong attraction .

[ Parent ]


Re: at last a twin rotor (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by blueyonder (windwoodgood at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 04:12:30 AM MST
(User Info)

 hi andy . what you asked i found very interesting in practice .
   when i was making a shaft to try out two rotors i made a key way.
  as bothe rotors also had a key way.

   fitting this together i had to make sure the key ways were aligned .
  so i could get the key in line.
  but then i saw every time i put the second rotor on with the jacking screws .
  it was always in the right place.
   can you beleave the rotors line themselves up.

  but i do have marks on each rotor so i can just move it a fraction
  for 100% alignment.
   with the small rotors i have .only 8 magnets each . it is possible to twist
   them a small bit. maybe a 1/4" . so i just check out the marks i made.
   (if the other one is locked in place.)

  first time i have used jacking screws.  thay are a must.

  dont ever be tempted not to use jacking screws.
   as the one your trying to put on will pull the other of the shaft

    in short the north pulls the south and vice versa.
    two rotors are twice as much fun and twice as much power.
    double the amount of fun you get andy.
   make a second rotor.
its a ill wind that dos no good
[ Parent ]



at last a twin rotor | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)
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