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By Seedler, Section Wind
Posted on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 02:24:08 PM MST
Rewind

Ok, I need my 3kw 3 phase radial wind turbine rewound from 240v to 350v.  Thats a 46% voltage increase.  Does this mean I add 46% more wingings to each coil? or each phase?

I'm confused about how to work this out.  I know I will have to use smaller wire, but how do I know what size will fit?

Is there a simple way of working all this out?

Thanks,

Dee.

Rewind | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 09:20:49 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

You can't just add 46% more windings, more wire equals more resistance so you will need more than 46% more windings to overcome this resistance. And you want to use smaller wire which will also increase the resistance. More windings, smaller wire, more resistance. You might not be able to to get up to 350v with the size of your genny?
W o o f -={(



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 01:02:23 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

It may be possible to a point
are you able to wind a test winding and measure that ?
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 02:43:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Huh?

The generated voltage goes up with the turns ratio for a given RPM.  Resistive voltage drop is a separate (though related) issue.

If the total cross section of the wire is kept constant by resizing in proportion to the change in turn count (which is also what you want for fitting it into the slots), then at the same power output you'll get the same percentage of power lost to heating.  The current will have scaled down in proportion to the turns ratio, resulting in the same voltage drop per turn.  So the voltage drop will have scaled with the voltage.

The only thing that won't just scale is eddy current losses in the copper, which will go down due to breaking the constant cross section of copper into thinner pieces using the finer wire, thus eliminating some of the eddy current loops.  (Much like laminating a magnetic core to cut eddy current losses there.)  But this is a small part of the losses.

Now you WILL have lower current output for any given amount of power generation, and resistive losses go with the SQUARE of the current.  So if this is a battery charging application (where output voltage is constant at the battery voltage and CAPTURED energy is thus proportional to current) the percentage lost to resistance heating at a given CURRENT output will go up due to the increase in resistance.

The original poster didn't say why he wants to rewind, or what his load is (batteries, heaters, etc.)  I'm presuming he's not changing his loads and is after usable power at lower winds.  If so, the cost - with battery charge or resistive loads - is higher percentage losses to stator heating at higher winds and a lower furling point to prevent burnout.  But he might end up with more usable power, depending on his site's wind regime, even if he has to lower his peak collection.

[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by oztules (oztules__at__bigpond.com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 03:08:04 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Oztules-toys

ULR,
Seedler was using a auto transformer to get up to the higher volts before to feed a grid connect inverter. So his output was already less current and more voltage than his original windings.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/8/1/141124/1643

Flux has indicated "Whatever the cause, the failure you have has all the symptoms of a faulty stator, it is a rewind and you can now change the turns and wire size to replace the nuisance of a transformer and get it running as originally intended. Don't use Chinese bearings in the rebuild either."

Seedler, yes turns/volt gave you the 240v, and the same turns/volt will dictate your new winding number.

.........oztules

Flinders Island Australia
[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by oztules (oztules__at__bigpond.com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 03:09:39 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/Oztules-toys

Crap.... ULR sorry, you seem to have resolved the problem while I was writing the above reply

.........oztules
Flinders Island Australia
[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 03:01:41 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes there is a simple way to work it out, presuming you want the same WATTAGE from the genny at any given RPM.  Your boost in voltage is accompanied by a drop in current.

You rewind every coil with 350/240 times as many turns, using wire with a cross section of about 240/350 times the cross section of the original.

Unfortunately, changing by one wire gauge produces a cross-section ratio of about 1.26.  So going one gauge thinner leaves you too thick and you might have trouble cramming all the turns in, while going two gauges leaves you too thin and you have excess resistance.  Your ratio is right "in the crack between the piano keys".  If you can manage it, go with the larger option.



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Seedler on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 04:28:27 PM MST
(User Info)

So does this mean the coils should have 1.46 times the turns as the originals to get the higher voltage.  For example if the original coils have 100 turns the new coils should have 146 turns.  Is this rite?

Does increasing the voltage effect the short circuit braking properties of the turbine or will that all stay the same?

I dont know much about the whole resistance issue.  Does using smaller wire mean the turbine will have less output through heat loss?  Will overheating be an issue?

I was talking to a local motor rewind shop that said they could rewind it, but I wasn't convinced they knew what I was talking about.  I would rather be able to tell them what needed to be done, like how many turns to use and what wire size, than rely on them doing what they thought was best.

Thanks for everyones input.

Dee.

[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 04:48:30 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi dee
 Awhile back you posted a link for me where you bought it but, all i saw was a pretty girl and travel destinations.

 Can you post a pic of the innards?

 How many poles is it?

 How many turns of what size wire?

 Sorry if i missed something.

 Mark

 

[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Seedler on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 06:37:07 AM MST
(User Info)

Vawtman,  Sorry about the link not working.  Try these two.  Both company names were on my turbines boxes, and the guy I delt with seemed to have email addresses with both companys.  I'm guessing they are partner companys.

http://www.windgenerators.cn/index.asp

http://www.windgenerator.cn/

Web addresses are almost identical except for the s.

I'm sorry but I dont have any pics.

I havent got it down yet but from what I can remember the rotor had 2 pair of about 8 x 2" by 4" magnets going around its diamater.

I couldn't tell you wire size.  And I have no idea how to tell the windings of each coil.

Would it work ok if I just went one size smaller of wire for the coils, and then just fitted as many turns in as I could?  I'm aiming for 350v but would be happy with anywhere between 330 and 350

Dee.

[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Flux on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 01:13:39 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry my computer has been down.

Just increase turns per slot but 350/240. Reduce wire cross sectional area to 250/340 of what you had before.

The rewind company will calculate the wire size. Don't worry about anything else it will be near enough for braking and everything else, it will just think you have got a new transformer with no magnetising current.

There will be no problems with eddy currents in the copper wire to worry about, that doesn't happen in slotted coil windings until you get to megawatt levels.

Flux



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Flux on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 01:15:11 PM MST
(User Info)

Don't know why I have mixes up 350 and 340, choose which you fancy and use that value for turns and wire size.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Rewind (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Seedler on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 04:02:13 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks everyone.  I'll bring it to the rewind shop later this week.  

Will let you's know how I get on.

Dee.

[ Parent ]



Rewind | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial)
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