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Treadmill Motor PVC Blades


By packman1234, Section Newbies
Posted on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 01:05:47 AM MST
Wind

Hi

I built a wind generator with an IMAGE variable speed dc motor from a treadmill--Part no:22345500
Motor specs: 2.5 horsepower v.arm-130   a.arm-15.3   rpm-3200  ENCL-OFC  Class Insulation-F  Model no:4640D-51A.

I basically followed the instructions for building the Chispito Generator. I used 6" pvc for 3 blades that are 29.75 long. The diameter is 54" from outer tip to outer tip. The tips are 1.25 wide and the root attached to the rotor is 6".

When I spin the shaft on the bench by hand, it gave me 6v. When I spin the blades attached to the rotor by hand I get about 2v.

My problem is this-----I cant get this to startup in the wind. I tried 2 box fans and it moved about a quarter of a turn and stops(that was aiming it in all sorts of directions) I grabbed my 150mph leaf blower and it spins with that-but not real fast! What am I doing wrong and how could I improve this. All I want out of it is 100watts for simple battery charging and maybe a shed light.

Any help getting me in the right direction would be appreciated!!

Bob

Treadmill Motor PVC Blades | 47 comments (47 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by packman1234 on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 07:56:18 PM MST
(User Info)

I forgot to mention the hub is heavy!! It is 7 " diameter and 1 1/8 thick.
The motor and hub must weigh about 25 pounds....



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 08:18:46 PM MST
(User Info)

The 260V 5000rpm motor that 'mill is designed for has a cut-in speed of 375rpm, near as I can calculate your motor has a cut-in of 480rpm. Your rotor is bigger (aka slower) than the original 48" one. So, your mill will have to have a wind about 1.5x what the original would work in. I calculated out a faster blade for my Chispito:

Optimized 4 foot windmill rotor made from 4" Schedule 40 PVC pipe. For CCW rotation, root of blade 3/4" from the center of hub, TSR of 8 @ 5 degrees AOA, loaded RPM 375@6.7MPH(3M/S) 1232@22MPH(10M/S):

Cut a 23-1/4" length of 4" Schedule 40 PVC pipe lengthwise into 4 equal pieces.

Take one and lay the inside of the pipe down and oriented left (root) to right (tip).

On top-left hand corner drill a 1/4" hole 3/4" from the left (root) and top (trailing edge).

Drill another 1/4" hole 3/4" to the right of that hole.

Mark the right edge (tip) at 1-5/16" from the top (trailing edge).

  1. " from the right (tip) mark it 1-7/16" from the top (trailing edge).
  2. " from the right (tip) mark it 1-5/8" from the top (trailing edge).
  3. " from the right (tip) mark it 1-13/16" from the top (trailing edge).
  4. " from the right (tip) mark it 2-1/16" from the top (trailing edge).
  5. " from the right (tip) mark it 2-7/16" from the top (trailing edge).
  6. " from the right (tip) mark it 3-1/8" from the top (trailing edge).
This should be 5-1/4" from the left (root).

"Connect the dots" with a smooth curve. Use a french curve if you have one.

Cut the bottom part off and discard.

Sharpen the top (trailing) edge on the inside only! Do not sharpen the 3" on the left (root).

Round off the bottom (leading) curved edge and the tip.



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 at 08:28:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Packman,
    The 54" dia sounds reasonable. Would you happen to have a picture? It could tell us a lot.  Sometimes 'beginners' can make the PVC blades backwards, with the big angle out at the tip, and a small angle in toward the root.

I've made pvc blades out of the 6" pipe and it seems to me that 6" wide at the root is too much curve (excessive drag) hanging over.  I think that would be like 3" wide.  The blades I made were 3.25" at the widest point.  

The cogging of those motors can be a real pain I know. Small mills have to be able to start on a feather and this is difficult to do with 4 and 5 footer DC motor mills.  
I would try 5 thin  pvc blades (same 54" diam) myself.  It would give it  a lot more start-up power. (but it won't mean any more power though than 3 blades)

The other thing that can cause big start-up problems is balancing. I find It is impossible to balance the blades with the DC motor itself due to the cogging. I always just use a bronze bushing in wood separately, to balance the prop more accurately, or you can take the rotor out of the treadmill motor and hold on to the two ball bearings and balance it that way very well also.

-Just some thoughts. You'll get it soon!




Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:30:24 PM MST
(User Info)

when i took the motor apart, only one bearing stayed on the shaft..The other was in a housing.

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by packman1234 on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 04:09:34 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks to both of you for the replies!!

I want to do the second set of blades right..I have to comment first on Roadrangers reply. When I got to the part in the instructions for making the blades, I followed this link and made them from  six inch pvc cut at 29.75 length and divided into two 150 degree pieces and one 60 degree piece..... http://www.thekevdog.com/projects/wind_generator/

My holes on the hub are 1" apart and 1 7/8 from the shaft center.

This Generator spins CLOCKWISE because I got negative voltage readings going Counterclockwise. Are the Instructions you gave me correct for the info I just revealed?? Can you also tell me how you arrived at the cut-in speed of 480rpm for my machine- I'm learning and am confused at all the reading I've done!

How many watts can I get out of this and is this motor feasible for this project?

I did not finish this by any means...Just set it on a stand to see if it spins before proceeding to the next level.

To CmeBrew---
The blades seem balanced fine..They do not stop at the same spot when spinning it manually.

I really appreciate the help-Just need a little bit more to keep going!

Bob



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by packman1234 on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 04:13:05 PM MST
(User Info)

I did upload a picture to help you guys.. It is in my user info, I beleive...

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by TomW on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 04:37:12 PM MST
(User Info)

Rob;


This Generator spins CLOCKWISE because I got negative voltage readings going Counterclockwise.

If it is a brushed motor just reverse the leads. Unless I missed something.

Use its negative as a positive. That way direction of rotation matters not. Just use the "most positive" lead as your positive lead. Or feed it into the AC side of a bridge rectifier and it will just be right on the DC side of that.

Tom.

Contact: IRC


[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by packman1234 on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 06:29:53 PM MST
(User Info)

Tom

Dont get me all confused!!
Is it ok to have this unit spin clockwise? The new design of my blades will determine this..The voltage readings I get make no difference when reversing leads and spinning it clockwise and counterclockwise.

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:00:45 PM MST
(User Info)

The "original" motor has a flywheel/fan on the shaft that is screwed on with a left handed thread. If you mount a "clockwise" rotor on it it will unscrew and fall off when you "load" the motor. I don't know how your motor is?

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by TomW on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:23:21 PM MST
(User Info)

Bob;

I am speaking from purely an electrical standpoint.

I do not know the motor and another poster notes their could be mechanical issues with reversing it.

Not sure what you mean by "The voltage readings I get make no difference when reversing leads and spinning it clockwise and counterclockwise."? If the polarity of the voltage does not change with reversing directions then something else is going on. It is not easy to get a handle on what a poster understands.

Sorry I even jumped in.

Sorry to confuse you. Really.

Tom

Contact: IRC


[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:19:54 PM MST
(User Info)

For a good guess at the cut-in of your motor I took the "original" 260V 5000rpm motor's documented 375rpm cut-in and corrected it for the different voltage and rpm of yours:
( 375rpm / ( 5000rpm / 260V ) ) * ( 3200rpm / 130V ) = 480rpm

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:35:27 PM MST
(User Info)

You can - of course - change the mounting hole positions lengthwise along the blade to match your hub and adjust the length at the root to give you exactly 24" tip to center of hub. The positioning of the holes at 3/4" in from the trailing edge is critical to get the right angles along the blade. It is also very important to sharpen the blade only on the inside of the pipe (toward the wind) to get the proper angle of the blade.

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:53:38 PM MST
(User Info)

As for the suitability of this motor - if you are in a high wind area (20-30mph) it would be OK with a proper 4' rotor. In a 10-20mph area I think you'd be better off with a 3' rotor (for more rpms) and look for max 40watts at 20mph, maybe 5-10w at 10mph? To scale the blade down for a 3' rotor multiply the lengthwise measurements (distances in from the tip for each "mark") by 2/3 but leave the width measurements as-is.

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 07:55:47 PM MST
(User Info)


I see your pictures.  It looks like you made the blades correctly to go clockwise. As Roadranger says, make certain the heavy 'flywheel' screws ON in the clockwise direction and it will not come off.

Question---Do you have the motor hooked up to anything? When testing, it is unhooked--- right?  Because it seems to me, with those VERY wide blades, at that very big angle, it would start up VERY easy.  It confuses me.  I suspect it will be very difficult to get the high speed you will need with those wide pvc blades hanging over that far near the root side.  
I would trim off 2" off the width and add a couple more blades myself.

Have you actually tried to test the mill in the wind outside? The REAL wind outside is probably better than box fans or blowers.

Perhaps you can make sure the motor is not semi-shorted out or something by hooking it up to a 12v battery directly and letting it spin.  It should turn with some fairly good force around 400 rpm.

It is a puzzlement.



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by packman1234 on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 at 08:41:54 PM MST
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Ok Guys....Have to clear up some things.....

The hub slides on the shaft with a key and locks down with an allen screw. NO threads are involved here!

I did test it in a 10mph wind and no go.. The 150mph leaf blower was the only thing that could make it spin continuously. When hooked up to 12v it spins very nice-slight wobble on hub.

I still need to know the voltage this is capable of producing in a 10-15mph wind--or even a 5-10mph wind.....I thought the cut-in is = rpm/voltage*cut-in voltage(13v for weak battery) Based on that i figured...
3200/130=24.615*13v=319rpm . Does the swept area need to be calculated in this also??
I figure with this current setup, I have 63.62 sq ft swept area.

Please help me confirm all of this and come up with the perfect blade design. Is the 4inch pvc the way to go? I'd prefer the 3 blade setup if possible.

Again...Thanks for all the suggestions and help

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 04:12:39 AM MST
(User Info)

So much info here..

I guess my question is this- Should I try making a mark 2 inches in from the root on the leading edge and draw a line on the existing blades to shorten them to 24inches? If so- How wide should the tips be?

Or...
Should I start over with 4inch pvc and make them shorter than 24inches? Would I just cut the 4inch in half and use the halfs to make quarters? If so-where would I draw the line to narrow them?

It all comes down to this...The wind speed here averages 9mph. I need something that would be useful in slower winds and still be able to charge a battery or two- Can I do this or is this a waste of time with this motor?

I also have a woodshop in my basement and have not ruled out making wooden blades out of laminated hardwood...what are your thoughts on all of this???

Thanks for all the great info!

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 11:28:05 AM MST
(User Info)

The amount of power in the wind rises at the cube of its speed. A 30mph wind has 64 times the power as a 7.5 mph wind. To get 100w at 7.5mph would need a windmill with maybe a 24 foot rotor and 6+ blades and a 32:1 gearbox. Below 10mph solar would be a better solution.

Oh, and most folks say wooden blades are way better (2x ?) than pvc - but I don't know of any comparison using a properly calculated PVC rotor. A properly carved blade will always outperform any "pipe blade" but I don't know by how much?

Cutting a PVC blade that "looks good enough" as the how-tos show and expecting optimum results seems a bit silly to me. If you are interested in seeing the most annoying presentation of the proper design of a pvc blade you are likely ever to see check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BawUfbDDvtA
I calculated mine in a similar fashion but i think I compensated for a couple issues he overlooked. For instance, how you sharpen the trailing edge has a large effect on the blade angle, especially out near the tip which can be going 160mph in a 20mph wind!

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 04:59:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Roadranger

That video turned me off!

In your opinion, should I scrap this idea(Thats all I really wanted to know)
I would like to try something with it and was hoping for a more doable solution with the 4inch or cutting the existing blades shorter and narrower.. Could I try that and see what happens..
if you had this---what would you try to at least get it to spin in a 10mph wind.

Thanks for your opinion

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 07:56:44 PM MST
(User Info)

It really should at least spin as-is in a 10 mph wind. I'd first try to balance it better using a piece of shafting and a couple ball bearings. Some have taken their motor apart and just used the armature with it's bearings to balance with but you'd have to convince yourself that you know how to get it apart and together without messing up the brushes. Then with this motor I'd try the 3' version of my rotor first. Then if you are up to carving wooden blades I'd search around a bit for the measurments and go for a 3' rotor designed for a TSR of 8. I don't think a 4' rotor can ever be fast enough to work well under 15mph.

Where did you get your motor? The eBay 130V "windmill" motors are all 6750rpm which is completely unuseable!

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:06:40 PM MST
(User Info)

I got the motor out of a Sears treadmill that my sister had.
I took it apart a few times to replace the two bracket mounting screws and see what it was all about..No biggie playing with this-Very strong magnet and sucks the case end in super hard and tight!

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:16:06 PM MST
(User Info)

Just for reference this is the "originally spec'd" motor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220008972818

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:39:05 PM MST
(User Info)

Thats not even close to the one I have,,,specs are but hub is bigger and not threaded.
Mine is 2.5hp at 130v at 3200 rpm

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 10:37:34 AM MST
(User Info)

Motors have losses so as a motor the rpms will be less than some theoretical and as a generator the rpms would have to be more than the theoretical. My motor has been documented as running no-load at 2000rpm at 100V but needing 2800rpm to generate 100V.

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 06:44:14 PM MST
(User Info)

I just tried cutting the existing pipe to  24" long  1  5/16 at tip and 4" at the root with the same bolt holes and it still wont move!  BUMMER!!

Is the 4" the way to go or is it cogging too much to do anything??

Help!!

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by Baling Wire on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 07:25:43 PM MST
(User Info)

I have an "Image" treadmill motor that is very similar.  I believe that your 12.2 volt cut-in will be close to 440 rpms based on the ratings of my motor.  They have quite abit of brush drag and the HEAVY fan/hub do NOT contribute to it starting easily.  A lot of weight in that hub to get moving from stop!

You will be hard-pressed to get any charge under 10-11 mph due to the higher cut-in rpm.  300-350 rpm at cut-in would be much better.  I would get a much lighter hub and try the pvc blades at the 54" diameter you have.  If after the hub change, it starts alot better, then you might look into changing the blade design a little?  Pvc blades may not "turn-up" enough rpms to make it work for you.  A good 4.5 to 5 ft. dia. Fast wooden prop might? work out ok. Good luck!

BW
73 de ke5yd



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:02:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Baling

Thanks for the encouragement!
Did you ever get the "Image" you have to work with a lighter hub?
Where would I find a hub like that to fit on the shaft?
How light would you go if I could get someone to make me one?

Now that I cut the blade length to 24", I'd like to start there(Made no difference in my testing whatsoever)

I am NOT giving up on this...I will have a BIGTIME smile just getting this thing to spin! I am pretty frustrated at this point though.

Should i keep the motor or try something else to get my spirits up?

Thanks
Bob


[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by roadranger (Road Ranger at G Mail dot com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:06:49 PM MST
(User Info)

A lot of brush drag could be a problem but a heavy hub shouldn't be. My "originally spec'd" motor has a very heavy fan/flywheel and works fine - but I am tempted to cut off the fan blades and thin it out a bit in the lathe to reduce the weight of the 'mill. I don't remember if you checked to see if the motor had less brush drag in one direction - some do. My motor turns easily with some cogging but not too bad.

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:37:31 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

packman:
What do you have the wires from the motor hooked up to. For your testing I would not connect them to anything. Tape off the ends and leave them hanging. If you are trying to power up anything it will make the motor drag.
W o o f -={(



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:40:50 PM MST
(User Info)

Not hooked up to anything!! Just 2 blue and a red and black hanging down the side!!

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 6th, 2008 at 08:43:56 PM MST
(User Info)

I'm sure this thing will work in the next tornado we get around here!!
Quite Frankly...I cant wait!! lol

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 05:12:33 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry you are having so much problem.  I suspect the great majority of us faced that dilemma when starting out.  And it don't stop there-- there are many other dilemmas with wind mills. (I am still learning!!)

If it were me and I had no other choice, I would do 5 pvc (or, wood blades would be somewhat faster) blades (6" pipe)  4.5' diameter (you may wish to trim them down later to get more rpm).

I would make the pvc blades 3" at the widest point, and 1.25" at the tip. (tip being 4 degree angle almost straight up and down)

And You might want to try a "Magnetic de-cogging mechanism" like I did on my treadmill motor mill here:

  http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/9/2533/99152

Your motor probably has 12 poles and thus 12 big cogs per revolution.  So you would need only 12 little magnets. (guess- 1/2" diam. by 1/8" thick ///and use big pan head wood screws or similar)
The objective with the 12 magnets spaced correctly is to make 24 smaller cogs per revolution instead of 12 big ones.

It is difficult to say, but if you understand the principle well, you might reduce the cogging anywhere from 20-50 percent.

Be very careful to get your alignment exact, or it could make the cogging even worse!
Mine worked quite well for a time, but during a 'hurricane wind' (probably 70mph gust) it screwed the hub on even tighter than I thought possible, and screwed up the alignment an eighth of an inch and worse cogging came back. (I never fixed it with a 'sheet metal washer' because I knew I was going to take it down in the spring and make a bigger mill)

I took that downwind mill down earlier this year since I didn't need it any longer since I have a 6 footer now.

(If anyone ever makes one of those downwind mills, be SURE to put a wood or plexyglass 'beard' mounted below and to the motor in order to help it turn (yaw) better in the lower winds!!)

I sorta like the heavy hub though.  It seems it helps to keep it turning in lower winds better and  keep it from stopping as much from the cogging.  Inotherwords, it seems it smooths over the cogging better in low winds and 'coasts' the prop better.

Wait for a 10-20mph wind day and see what it does.  4 footers don't do anything under 10mph.  My 6 footer only gets 'bits and pieces' of low wind on a typical 5-10mph day which amounts to almost nothing anyway. (maybe 10-50Watt hours??)

-Just some ideas. Keep trying-- we all had the same headaches!  



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 05:54:21 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry-- I meant to say to use FLATHEAD wood screws instead of "Panhead wood screws".  I doubt panhead (roundhead) would work good since it would cause Too much of a 'cog' at the magnets.  But it's up to you to figure out what might work the best.

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by packman1234 on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 05:59:48 PM MST
(User Info)

CmeBrew

Thank You...
I'm headin downstairs to cut the five per your suggestion...This is sooooooo... frustrating!
When I loosen the allen screw, it spins much better with less resistence(Just freewheeling on the shaft) I guess this is a good way to balance these also...Though I dont know what kind of weights to use on the hub or the blades for that matter!

I suppose I will have to redrill the hub now for for a five blade configuration.. Do you know what degree i would use for the 3" cut?  The last ones I cut two 150 degree sections with a 60 degree leftover. Then I drew a line for the tip at 1.5inches on both pieces of the 150 degree sections which made 4 blades. Would I use the same setup?Or.. do I cut the 6inch into four 90 degree pieces?

Any help is appreciated.

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:15:03 PM MST
(User Info)

Well, what I do is make a posterboard blade template and trace it on the pipe and jig saw it out in a few minutes.  I made my blades similar to yours with the bottom (trailing edge) straight all the way down to the tip. It make it easy to make them the same.  
Here's a picture of my last pvc blades:


Maybe make the blades about 2" wide at the hub where it screws down.
It is up to you how well you sand the edges down. If you don't make the "Magnetic Decogger" you might want to make the blades 3.25" at the widest point instead of 3".

Thats a good idea about balancing them on the shaft with a little oil.
It is easiest to have a postal weight scale to weigh each blade as you make them, to get them all exactly the same weight.  5 blades should be even easier to balance.
If they are off balance, I just tape a 3/16" little bolt/nut and washers to the blade up near the hub to which ever blade is off, and when It balances, I then drill thru the pvc blade and bolt the # of washers in that location.

I don't know where you live, but summer is not so good for smaller mills around here. The winter is quite good though.  Where I am at in Ohio, my solar panels probably do on average TEN times more daily watt hours than my 6 foot mill in the summer time-- BUT my 6 foot mill probably does TEN times more average Watthours than my solar panels in the winter months!  It completely reverses. In the spring and fall they seem to be about equal.

You might think about getting solar panels ASAP.  (or a 10 foot hawt 40 ft in the air! ha)

-Good luck.

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by packman1234 on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:35:11 PM MST
(User Info)

The pic of your blades look like they were made out of 4inch pvc...
Thats my problem now.....4inch or 6 inch? It's the angle part I am confused on.. I am VERY grateful for your help, but you are not really answering my questions... 4 inch cut into four 90 degree pieces...or  .....
4inch cut into two 150 degree and a 60 degree leftover??

Maybe you are not understanding how I made the first set.............http://www.thekevdog.com/projects/wind_generator/    This is the part I need to know!!

Thank You SO Much..

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:51:11 PM MST
(User Info)

Yeah, it is 6" pipe.  I like 6" better since the arch is bigger which means less blade hangs over with the width up near the root. But some use 4".

Sorry, my Geometry is not so good.  That link goes to his front page but it keeps going blank for me??  I just do it the simple "Caveman" way.  Maybe someone else will understand the angles and comment.

If all else fails, it would make a nice Ped generator I'm sure for excersise and 30-40 Watthours.  (Thats what I am making right now)


[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:58:46 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

How to make a PVC blade to the specs CMEbrew stated, will be 25º at the root and 7 degrees at the tip
draw a line down the length of the pipe. putting the pipe in a doorframe makes this easy.
At the root measure 3 inches around the curve of the pipe and make a mark.
At the tips measure 1.25 inch the same direction as in your first measurement and mark it
now draw a line between the 3 inch mark and the 1.25 inch mark.
now cut the prop out using the 2 lines you just made

Here is a plan for a  prop with 2 blades made from a single piece of pipe. Look at the angles and you will see the 7 and 25 degree points, which for 6 inch pipe is 3 inches at the hub and 1 inch at the tips. Hope that helps you, and here is the story the plans came from...
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/11/11/172721/53
W o o f -={(



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by packman1234 on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 04:38:54 AM MST
(User Info)

Woof

Does this link work for you?  http://www.thekevdog.com/projects/wind_generator/

I think the pic you show is the angle on the edge of the pipe AFTER it is cut. I still need the angle from the link for the initial cut. The link shows 150 degrees. Then the 150 degree piece makes 2 blades.
This is where I'm stuck! He states anywhere between 75 and 150 is where you want to be...but the first 150 I did created a 6inch root that was too much of a drag(I think).
I wish I had better math skills!

Thanks for the help

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 11:21:29 AM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

I'm not sure about that design. I see that a single PVC piece 150 degree pipe makes 2 blades, not quite sure what that angle ends up being doing that. If a single blade ends up being more than 45 degrees then it is counter productive. I personally would follow CMEbrew's suggestions for measuring the pipe. I'm at lunch from working right now, will try to respond better this evening.  
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 09:56:27 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

Home from work . . .
I'm going to steal the drawing off of that website and refer to it.

Using 6 inch pipe I would cut a section out of the side that is 4.25 inches wide, the small inset drawing that says 150 degrees would be replaced with 4.25 inches.

On the larger drawing of the marked pipe on the lefthand side. Replace 1.5 inch with 1.25 inch. this will leave 3 inches on the other side of the mark.

Do the same thing on the other end of the pipe piece but in reverse. Then draw a line between the marks. A tape measure turned up-side-down and laid down onto the pipe makes this very easy.

Now cut the pipe along the line you just made. The result is two PVC Pipe props with 3 inches around at the root and 1.25 inch around at the tips. The extra cuts at the hub that are shown on the drawing are not necessary, That is more for looks but, it cant hurt it. The props will be about 25 degrees at the hub and and 8 degrees at the tip.

For bonus points you could round off the leading edges and sharpen the trailing edges.
Hope that clears it up a bit . . .

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by farhan on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 at 11:05:17 PM MST
(User Info)

This is a good way of making PVC Blades, Thank you for it. Earlier how i learned and made my PVC blades was cutting the the 6 inch pipe into 4 equal pieces first and then leaving 1.25 tip from one side cutting to the next. Looked same as the ones you just showed but more cutting involved.

What is the length of this 6 inch pipe you took?

Thank you for your guidance.

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by packman1234 on Mon Aug 11th, 2008 at 04:10:50 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks Woof

I made several more blades and tried the whole thing in the driveway where there is more wind. I can get the thing to spin if it freewheels on the shaft. As soon as I put the key back in, it wants to start..but just cant do it.
I converted the original diagram on how to make these to 112.5 degrees and have 4inches at the base and 1.5 at the tip(Tried it only with 3 blades)They are 36 inches long. The wind stopped shortly after cutting these and dont know the results yet.I am positive that your help is working....
The conversion you gave me came out to 80 degrees and those spin also without being connected to the shaft. I feel like a mad scientist out in the driveway as a lot of neighbors stop by and ask just what in the hell I am doing!! They keep telling me the blades need to be wider to capture more wind and one suggests I lessen the spring tension on the brushes and see what happens.
The 112 degrees is a compromise between yours and the originals and I hope it spins soon! Another neighbor stopped by and told me he has been tinkering with one and will share his results with me.
How exactly do I round over the leading edge and which side get sharp on the trailing edge?

Again....Thanks for the great help!!

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by farhan on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:07:13 AM MST
(User Info)

If i connect my treadmill motor to a 12v battery it gives out about 400rpm, when i connect to 24v it gives out 900-1000rpm. Its a 180v 4000rpm turdan treadmill motor.

I wanted to ask this that does the same happen when i will use it as a wind turbine? i mean if it gets 400rpm from the wind it will produce 12v nd same for 24v?

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by ghurd on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:40:34 AM MST
(User Info)

Pretty much.
It takes a hair more RPMs, but that's the idea.
Then as it spins faster the charging amps increase.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by farhan on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 11:45:16 PM MST
(User Info)

Ok thank you, so is this motor worth trying as a turbine?

I did but it wouldn't produce 12v constant, produced 7-8v but in a good wind went to 16v too, flux told me to gear 2:1, i'm making that right now.

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#46)
by packman1234 on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:53:48 PM MST
(User Info)

Firhan

How do you know you are getting 400rpm when connected to 12v power.. Thats the part I get stuck at..

Bob

[ Parent ]



Re: Treadmill Motor PVC Blades (3.00 / 0) (#47)
by farhan on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:38:26 AM MST
(User Info)

I bought a digital tachometer and from that i calculate the rpm, i know digital tachometers readings are not perfect but good for an idea. Take 3-5 readings and take an average. Thats what i do, don't know if its the best way or not : )

[ Parent ]


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