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Whole house fan motor


By Sunour, Section Remote Living
Posted on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 04:29:25 PM MST
auto

I have recently acquired a whole house fan for free but, would like to know where I can get a low amp draw 12 vdc motor to replace the 6.6 amp draw, 120 vac motor.
The fan blades, of which there are 4, measures 43 inches in diameter and have about a 35 degree pitch. Belt driven.
Again, it will be powered from an off grid 12 volt nominal, 1600 amp hour battery bank, 1,000 watt PV array charging system. So, I need a motor that draws as little amperage as possible but can still move 5,000 cubic feet of air on a regular basis. The plan is to build a squared "cupola" on the roof that will house the fan and motor, while the ceiling grate (which opens with negative pressure) is of course mounted in the ceiling, thus pulling air from both from the interior of the house and the attic and venting directly outside by way of louvered vents (much like gable vents) all the way around the "cupola."
I have looked at some 12 vdc motors that draw around 20 amps (which is at the top end of what the system can afford amperage wise) but I am not sure if it will do the job. Would like to see less amperage if possible.

I have all ready thought about such things as insulation being "sucked up" and believe that to be a minor hurdle to overcome with a low density fiber cloth similar to a house wrap, that will allow air to pass through but not insulation fibers. Also, I am not against using a small 12 vdc actuator to open the ceiling grate if necessary.

Thank you for any assistance. I know this is a tall order, given todays motor technologies. If amperage where not the biggest hurdle, it would be an easy choice of which motor to use.
Sincerely, Sunour.

Whole house fan motor | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by clflyguy (sidney.raiford@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 10:40:07 AM MST
(User Info)

Sunour,
  Check this place out, as well as other scooter motor places. A lot of these motors are rated for continuous duty.  http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html

Gus



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 11:07:34 AM MST
(User Info)

This is a very low Watt-draw fan adaption from near-free junk. This link is on my permanent favorites list:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/23942/1876

"You're a big fan? that's good, because if it gets any hotter around here, I'm gonna need a big fan" -Groucho Marx



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 11:21:30 AM MST
(User Info)

You forgot one important detail: What RPM is the stock motor that currently runs it? Based on the 6.6amp 120vac, that comes to 792 watts. That converts to 1hp (1.06 if you want to be picky). There are literally TONS of 12vdc motors "out there", do a google search for 12vdc motors! You may want to sacrifice the RPMs of the AC motor, for a 12vdc one that is A)continuous duty and B)at least 1/2hp at close to the RPM of the AC one, and C) Don't forget that you may not be specifically looking for a 12v motor!
Many people use the 90vdc motors rated at around 1800 RPM and run them on 12v, which uses considerably less amps. Again, search this board for "90v" and "fan" and you'll find several stories of whole-house fans made with that configuration.
I use two of those 90v motors on 12v, and each draws only 4.8 watts (about 0.38-.39 amps). One has a 16" high velocity fan blade on it, and draws the hot air from the cieling to the outside. The other runs a 9-1/2" by 9-1/2" squirrel-cage fan that used to be the blower on my 220vac furnace. This draws cooler air from under my home to the inside. On all but sunny days over about 93degreesF, it keeps it about 80 in here. And there is still much that could be done to make that even a much higher efficiency!

And here's a link to get you started, one of the many places supplying DC motors like mentioned.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2008091215563525&catname=electric&keyword=MDDD

Good luck
Rural McG



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Jeff (ruralmcguyver at yahoo dot com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 11:27:26 AM MST
(User Info)

Looking back at my post, in the first paragraph I mentioned doing a google search for 12vdc motors. That should be "DC motors" as it's most likely you'll end up using one rated for a much higher voltage, but running it on 12v.
Also: scooter motors are not the most efficient for your application. Although most are 24-36vdc, some of the 90v ones you'll find in the link I gave you would work better.

Again, good luck!
Rural McG



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Sunour on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 11:56:53 AM MST
(User Info)

Ya, the first motor I looked at was this one,
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6MK99
mainly beacuse of the exsting 120 vac motor which is 1/3 HP and 1725 RPM's, by the way.
I figure to run the existing motor by way of the 120vac inverter would draw, 63 amps dc from the battery bank, but to run that all night would be 630 amp hours. To much!

My first thought about the 90vdc motor from Grainger was to use a varible speed controller, but then most of those have a low voltage cut out of around 20 volts.
I geuss the only true solution would be to add more PV modules.
To think that I could find a 12vdc motor that would run such a large whole house fan effectively on less than 10 amps dc was a pipe dream.

You see the PV array at 1,000 watts a 12 vdc nominal will only produce a daily equivalent of about 300 amp hours. Typically we "spend" about 200 amp hours a night as is.
Maybe a more efficient ac motor would be easier to find?



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by CmeBREW (smke833f@hotmail.com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 11:57:58 AM MST
(User Info)

Hello,
      The 'Big whole house fan' is a very interesting subject to me.  This is just an opinion.
I am no expert on this, but from my limited experiments with DC motors as fans, I think I would go with a BIG DC (over 100vdc rated) permanent magnet motor with VERY big ceramic magnets in it. Lose the belt drive and go with direct drive to get more for less power.  My theory is the bigger the ceramic magnets (the field) inside the motor, the more 'fan' you will get for less power.

For what you are talking about I would get something much bigger than just a treadmill motor.

You may have to weld up a new steel mount for the big motor since it would weigh so much.

Your fan blades are large at almost 4' in diameter, so my wild guess is you may want it to go 400-600rpm??  
So for a 12v system like yours, a would first try a big motor with ratings around 130vdc/ 4000rpm / 10-15A .  I have never tried anything that big though.  Sounds like fun though!

Hooked to 12v batts or direct 12v solar panel , it might only use around 60-100watts of power to run and put out quite a lot of wind. But I am quessing somewhat, it is difficult to know for sure.  
It is difficult to estimate how much CMF you really need and thus how much watts that will need to be used in a complex application like yours.

If you could somehow have a relay that would hook the fan DIRECTLY to one of the solar panels, you could get even more for less power by skipping the batteries when the sun is out.  I have hooked my 31 inch floor fan directly to my 45Watt (actually 25W output) HF solar panel, and it really runs like a jet.

You probably won't get the kind of CFM you mentioned, but it should be quite good I suspect especially if the fan has nothing resisting the air flow into the attic.

-Hopefully others can share some more experiences.   -Hope it works good.

 



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Sunour on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 12:30:08 PM MST
(User Info)

Well, no luck so far on finding a more efficient ac motor. They don't seem to have changed much since this old existing Hoover motor was built (back in the 50's?). Still around 4.8 to 6.6 amps at 120vac.

One thing I have neglected to do is actually run the fan with the existing motor and take an amp reading. Something I should do with the fan installed to get a more accurate amp reading but, I am reluctant to do since there is so much building involved first and, I wanted to know that I can actually use it first. I know from experience that nameplate amps are not always what the motor draws.

Even after crunching numbers and getting second opinions, sometimes it just takes, a leap of faith.

Thank you all. Sincerely, Sunour.



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Sunour on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 04:19:39 PM MST
(User Info)

OK, this is what I am going to try.
Fisrt, the motor - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6MK99

Motor controller - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/2LHT9

And last - 1,000 more watts of PV array.

This set up, I know beyond a doubt will work. Lets see...
$390.50 + $318.25 + $5,000.00 + the copula and related electrical = YIKES!
I think I am going to be sick, excuse me...



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by vawtman (vawtman(at)charter(dot)net) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 04:40:48 PM MST
(User Info)

Hi Sunour, take your time and think abit more.
 Mark

[ Parent ]


Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 06:01:13 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

Why woud you need a motor controller ?
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by GaryGary (gary@BuildItSolar.com) on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 at 09:10:55 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.BuildItSolar.com

Hi,
We have had large whole house fans in our last couple homes and really like them.  

Mounting it in a cupola is an interesting idea.  I just wonder if you are going to pull so much attic air through the roof vents and other gaps and cracks that you won't get enough flow up through the ceiling grill?

One nice thing about the cupola mount is that it would be quieter.  They can be on the noisy side at high speed -- two speeds is very helpful to cut the noise down on low speed and still get a lot of ventilation.

Even if you mount the fan at ceiling level, it will cool the attic by blowing the house air through it, which is likely to be a lot cooler than attic air.

Gary
Gary gary@BuildItSolar.com www.BuildItSolar.com



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by Sunour on Mon Sep 15th, 2008 at 03:55:16 AM MST
(User Info)

Pretty much everything about it is going to be somewhat experimental as it progresses.
This fan was a part of the original construction of a large two story home built in the early 60's. The fan assembly was actually suspended by its four corners with steel rods from the roof rafters. It did not make contact with the ceiling members except by way of a heavy cotton duct.

Anyway, having a 43" blade diameter (housing is 48") and an overall height of almost 24" and given the fact that a weight bearing wall runs through the house, underneath of and parallel to the roof ridge, which by the way only has 3' of pitch in 10', you can see that something different had to done from conventional whole house fan installations. Not to mention the possibility of noise and vibration (remember the original installation?) Not having sufficient negative pressure at the interior of the home to create a cooling effect shouldn't be a problem, but if it is, it should be easy to overcome and still allow natural aspiration to happen. I was actually more worried about to much negative pressure in the attic space.

As for the speed controller, its just a way of controlling amperage use. If, after all is done, I don't need to run the fan at FLA to make the home feel cooler I can turn it down. I was also kicking around the idea of a timer and or thermostat, to turn it off automatically

All over time of course, not all at once. First thing is to build the "squared" copula saddling the ridge and setting the fan and ceiling grate in place and taking an amp reading with the original 1959 Hoover motor. Which is in perfect condition by the way. I want you to know that I looked at new motors, thinking that they would take less amps, mainly because of progressing technologies, this motor is 40 years old, but that exact size motor today still takes 6.6 amps. Something that puzzles me is that the 12vdc motor I am looking at uses 27 amps.
Same 1/3 HP
RPM's 1750 ac, 1800 dc
It would seem that the dc motor is way more efficient.

  1. X 6.6 = 759
  2. / 12 = 63.25
Actuall FLA of the 12vdc motor is 27 amps. Thats a difference of 435 watts, more than half, of the ac motor.



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by methanolcat (methanolcat (at)yahoo(dot)com) on Mon Sep 15th, 2008 at 03:43:06 PM MST
(User Info)

   I think I would just go with all the extra goodies, I mean after all it's only like "$390.50 + $318.25 + $5,000.00 + the copula and related electrical = YIKES!" what, 8,000 - 9,000, for a energy efficient fan, heck some day it might pay off right?

   Matt



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by tanner0441 on Tue Sep 16th, 2008 at 08:17:09 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi

For $8,000.00 I would rather just sweat.

Brian


[ Parent ]



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Wed Sep 17th, 2008 at 12:11:56 AM MST
(User Info)

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/NPC-02446.html
$72 24v should run fine on 12v.

I have used a similar motor, not over years.
For the price may be worth it to see how things go.
Also have speed controllers.

Should look to replacing the blade with an air foil blade.
Move same air with 30% less power on a celling fan project.

Have fun,
Scott.



Re: Whole house fan motor (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by desertcoyote on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 10:13:36 PM MST
(User Info)

I have not read all the comments so sorry if I am repeating something here.
I have combated this problem in the past using the 'fan law'. That is the CFM is linear to the RPM but the HP required to drive it is 1/RPM^2. For example is the fan is rated at say 10,000 cfm at 1HP-1760 RPM, then you can get 5000 cfm 88 rpm at 1/4 HP.
Good deal. Plus if u get a variable speed DC motor drive you can get massive evacuation when needed and throttle it back to maintain a minimum amount of air flow to keep you from being miserable.



Whole house fan motor | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 editorial)
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