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Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries


By hamlet, Section Storage
Posted on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 03:38:43 PM MST
Any problems with long-term storage after draining electrolyte?

I want to store a second set of lead-acid batteries.
What is the best way to do this? I don't want to float
charge them. Can I dump out the electrolyte, rinse them,
drain again, and just put them away? Does oxygen react
with dry plates? Will residual moisture be a problem?

I already have 10 gallons of new electrolyte to re-water
them when needed.

Thanks
Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by bob g on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 09:50:31 AM MST
(User Info)

the cells will need to be fully charged before draining, then rinse well with
distilled water, and redrain.

presumably they will then store well.

i seem to remember purging them with nitrogen, and plugging the cells to keep out air, but don't quote me on it.

the old books don't mention nitrogen or any other gas purging of air, so either i am wrong or it is a more recent thing that is done to maybe increase shelf life.

bob g



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 10:06:33 AM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,

Hopefully you have not bought them yet.
New, order without electrolyte as in dry, get electrolyte separate.
Rummer is dry batteries are good for around 10 years.
I suspect much longer if stored; zero moisture and O2 out of them.
(Should not be hard to do).

If you have the batteries, sell them, get new dry ones. Best choice.
I do not see how you could get all the electrolyte out, any left will damage battery over time. Maybe rinsing dozens of times... see why selling is a better option? Yet need to get the moisture completely out.

A stored battery with any electrolyte in it will suffer the normal problems a lead acid battery exhibits. Sulphate will kill the battery over time if any acid remains.
Water will corrode the lead over extended periods of time, all moisture must be removed. 02 corrodes...

Have fun,
Scott.



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by hamlet on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 11:05:48 AM MST
(User Info)

Thanks,
sounds like good advice. No, I haven't gotten my batteries yet. I'll call around and see what I can find. I think Concord sells dry-charge for 8% more, but might have to order them. I have some older batteries, but I'm not taking them. I've built desulphators and had good luck using them on poorly stored batteries, but that isn't a solution for long term storage. I just need a few lites, and a small waterpump for use in a village setting, so no big amp-hour batteries, just a few spares, just in case.
Does anybody know of a dry-charge seller other than Concord? Seems their line is pretty big stuff, too much for two men to handle. Trojans T105 or L16 would be perfect size, if only I could get them dry-charged. Thanks again!

[ Parent ]


Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 07:13:23 PM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,
I worried you had bought the batteries, all to often people buy then ask questions about what they should have done... ? Does not compute.

All flooded lead acid Batteries are shipped DRY, charging you for a dry battery is taking advantage of you. Go some place else. If their batteries only come wet then go up the food chain to where they add the electrolyte... get without and have electrolyte included in the price, no need to buy extra.
I bought my 8 golf cart batteries directly from the distributor, I can get wet or dry. They deliver to local Auto stores, delivered batteries to my home for free and gave a good price.
Worth a few phone calls, found this guy on eBay! More by accident, yet now I know.

Why do you want to store?? :-)

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by hamlet on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 01:46:47 PM MST
(User Info)

Thank you for the advice, very helpful. I was thinking NiFe, for longevity, but the order wait-time and price shot that down. Lead acid will have to do.

It will become apparent soon enough why I want to have extras.

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 06:20:11 PM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,
Read you posts, very clear why. As expected.
What's your address, If your right will need some place to hang out!-)

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ghurd on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 07:48:48 PM MST
(User Info)

Remember Y2K?  People were buying $10,000 worth of beans and toilet paper.
They asked me what I was buying to prepare.
"$20 worth of Bullets."
"Oh?  Do you plan to shoot your own food?"
"No.  I plan to shoot you and take all your stuff."

If it hits the fan that big, I will take solace with my FALs, AKs, G3s, etc, relax on my cases of (formerly) cheap Greek, steel-cased Commie, etc ammo, knowing that a CFL won't do any good in the big picture.
A few big caps from teenagers stereos in brightly painted Hondas will do what needs done.

But that's just me.
G-

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by hamlet on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 11:26:39 PM MST
(User Info)

I find your thinly veiled allusions to violence offensive. That kind of attitude won't get you very far. Civil strife isn't something to be smug about. Apologize or get off my thread.

This is illustrative as to why the USA will be in much worse shape than the USSR was when it collapsed. A heavy-handed police state will not be able to contain Rodney-King style riots from coast to coast. In the eventuality, our leaders will follow their pre-programmed evolutionary logarithms, initiating war to galvanize the masses, while attempting to secure the resources necessary to restore national prosperity. Rome didn't have nukes back then. We do.

[ Parent ]



YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by TomW on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:54:08 AM MST
(User Info)

Hammie;

I find your assertion this is your thread offensive.

Your decision to trust in the civility of humans in a crisis is commendable if rather unrealistic.

The question is: How long before it evaporates as you watch lowlifes abuse your family & friends? Then you will wish you had a person like those rednecks Tom and Glen sitting in the brush 150 yards off with a scoped rifle dialed in on the bad guys cranium. Fair or not, violence has its uses. So does wringing your hands and talking it over but which is immediately effective?

Storing dry batteries in preparation for some post apocalyptic scenario is not something I would waste resources on personally. Then, again, you have not revealed your true purpose so who knows what you plan?

Just my thoughts.

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by hamlet on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 02:01:15 PM MST
(User Info)

Yes, this is my thread, because I started it. Comments such as yours illustrate
the great degree of insecurity and powerlessness many people are feeling. I doubt you've ever shot anybody, been shot, or have any experience with the fallout from such a violent event.

"you will wish you had a person like those rednecks Tom and Glen sitting in the brush 150 yards off with a scoped rifle dialed in on the bad guys cranium"

Sounds like you suffer from "redneck anarchy-fantasy syndrome".
Right up there with "if you plug 'em on the porch, drag 'em back thru the door."

Reducing the collapse to such a simple set of ideas may give you some comfort, but crying babies, toothaches, hunger, and tears will stock you with a greater ruthless persistence than any imagined boogieman, offering no clear target for your cold blue steel.

[ Parent ]



Re: YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 02:36:18 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

May I suggest that you really don't know what you are talking about with Tom, on several points.

When in a hole, the best policy is to stop digging, IMHO.

Rgds

Damon

PS. If you want to get your rocks off screaming at me, please do so, since it's a lot safer than bawling Tom out.

[ Parent ]



Re: YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by TomW on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 03:06:28 PM MST
(User Info)

Main points;

Thread ownership is not granted or implied. Post ownership is granted by the terms of use... they are not the same thing.

I happen to be a combat wounded veteran [VietNam] with multiple confirmed kills. had buddies blown to blood spatters shot up, etc right in front of me, too. You obviously do not know me or my personal experience in life.

I am not living some movie induced fantasy. I have lived with the ramifications of having been shot every day for nearly 40 years with a unreliable and painful leg. No complaints just reality. I know the difference between violence in "Quake" and violence on flesh and blood.

I am far from powerless. We own property free and clear so we have a place pretty much regardless of what happens in the financial markets like you see now. We grow food we make our own power at a level sufficient to survive well. I can hunt our own land and we heat with wood.

This is not by accident that we are in this position. We saw it coming long ago and positioned ourselves for survivability by not buying all the crap folks think they "need" and sinking money into land and useful tools instead.  As well as learning skills to survive. How about you?

There is this fine old American tradition called self reliance that we embraced long ago. It seems to be missing in most Americans today. I call them sheep mostly now because thats how they act.

I am not some pimple faced kid in his moms basement spouting bull, you know.

You still didn't tell us what it is you foresee doing with the stored batteries?

Thats where my curiosity lies.

The rest I suggest we just agree to disagree and let it go at that.

Then we can find out what you plan to do that you think you need dry batteries.

Tom

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned."--Mark Twain
[ Parent ]



Re: YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by hamlet on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:07:18 PM MST
(User Info)

Thanks for your reply.

Obviously, you're not a Nintendo commando, but a real baby-killer.

I was way off the mark. A gulf of misunderstanding.
Communication breakdown. We're all much worse off than I've anticipated.
Perhaps our current troubles don't have their root in agriculture, as some
have suggested, but written language. I am awed by the power of the non sequitur...

Dry-charged lead acid:

Agriculture is tough without irrigation. I homestead on top of a hill. Water at bottom of hill, 1/4 mile distant. Pumping that water would make gardening easier. I would like to use an LCB. However, to beat voltage drop, I need an LCB rated for 90v, and a pump/motor, 90v/2A. This would necessitate linking several of my panels in series, at the expense of my wattage, which I'd like to avoid. Hence, I'm back to using batteries/inverter/diode-bridge. The batteries are the weak link between myself and supper. Thus, I think it worthwhile to get a few extras. Also, I am planning a move to a remote geography, and if this is successful, I'd like to take a few spares with me. There will come a time when replacements and spares are unobtainable, especially at the far reaches of the supply chain. Might need to charge the night-vision gear; who knows?

[ Parent ]



Re: YOUR THREAD?? (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by hamlet on Sat Sep 27th, 2008 at 06:26:44 AM MST
(User Info)

On reflection, pardon me for the baby-killer remark, unless you actually did.

[ Parent ]


Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 01:27:21 AM MST
(User Info)

Ghurd,

$20 worth of bullets will not get you far. About 100 rounds
Not even cover the first day.

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by hamlet on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 10:51:34 PM MST
(User Info)

Yeah, I looked back over my posts as well. Kinda makes me look like a prophet, or maybe Casandra. My assertion back in '05, when oil was $50b, that oil going over $100 barrel would screw the pooch seems to have unfolded right on track. Wouldn't you like to know what comes next, and when?  Heh-heh, just wait... won't be long now.

I'm in the NW part of the country, but will be moving to a more tropical local if I am lucky.  Where you?

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 01:22:26 AM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,

If things go bad Brighton near Detroit MI is not the place to be.
That was why I was looking for some place else!!
I have 30 days of food, lights and water indefinitely 100w solar

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by hamlet on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 01:34:21 PM MST
(User Info)

We'll all be refugees soon enough...

Do you have a family? I'd say if it is only you, then move someplace warm, before winter, before a banking lockup. For the price of an airline ticket, you could go refugee in Australia, Hawaii, New Zealand, Fiji, Cozmel. If you have a modest amount of cash, you could rent a small place in Mexico for cheep, near an agricultural area, pay to vaccinate the local children, and ingratiate yourself with the locals. Use your imagination. You have a passport, right?
 

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 02:16:16 PM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,

Children grown, locally. Difficult to get wife to move.
Been laid off almost a year, enjoying the free time too much!!
Want early retirement! Passport is up to date.

Sister in law in Mexico, loves it. Will join her if things get bad.

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by hamlet on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:19:44 PM MST
(User Info)

I can't recall the last time I enjoyed thread-drift so much!
Lot's to chew on here.

[ Parent ]


Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by ghurd on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 10:00:28 AM MST
(User Info)

It was a joke.

Back in 84-85 I worked at a gas station for $3.35/hour.  Gas was about $1.65.  I was paid "2 gallons an hour".
Now, gas is $3.64 (this morning), and the guy working there gets $7.25/hour.  He is paid "2 gallons an hour".

At the time, I had a Coupe de Ville that got about 14MPG.
He probably has a Honda that gets 35MPG.
He works less hours to go 100 miles than I did back in the days of cheap gas.
Less % of his minimum wage pay check goes to 100 miles of gas.  Almost like gas got cheaper?

Big Mac value meal costs the same too, slightly less than 1 hours wage then and now.

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by spinningmagnets (velmis1450bc(at)aol(dot)com) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 02:54:31 PM MST
(User Info)

Concerning survival in chaos...When I was younger, I recall being often told by the media that when an assailant wanted to rob your house or car, just let them. They said "It isn't worth your life to fight it" and I agreed, like an obedient little lemming.

Years later, repeat felons got tired of being identified by their victims, and getting increasingly longer repeat prison terms, so...They began killing their victims so nobody could identify them. Most states don't actively enforce the duly voted-in death penalty. They would just be going to prison anyway if they were caught, so why not kill witnesses? (law of un-intended consequences?)

I lived in Los Angeles during the LA riots. I worked at McDonnel Douglas in North Long Beach (I also lived at 804 N Thorsen in Compton in 1964). During the riots, the police were so overwhelmed, they stopped responding to 911 calls. Criminals committed  many crimes knowing that the police would not answer the phone.

Police Chief Gates issued an unconstitutional moratorium in Los Angeles County on gun pick-ups and ammunition sales.  Citizens who had already paid and waited their 3 weeks could not pick up the guns the law said they should be allowed to. Thousands flocked to Orange County down the 5 freeway to B&B gun warehouse to buy ammunition for guns they already had for their defense.

After hurricane Andrew in Florida, police were unable to contain roving packs of looters for a week (National Guard arrived, curfew). One homeowner was able to repel them by merely brandishing a .22, that was all it took.

After I saw what Gates did, I bought a 12-Ga pump shotgun (with shoulder strap) that would accept 3" shells in addition to the standard 2-7/8"-ers. Also a .357 pistol, and later a cheap Chinese SKS semi-auto army rifle.

Other than the standard items often cited (water, canned food, etc) I would also recommend anti-biotics and pain-killers (broken leg/hospital swamped, etc)

Another country to add to the list might be Costa Rica, I've heard good things.

I believe the price of lead will probably go up even more. Demand rising, no sigificant new mines...

[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 08:00:55 PM MST
(User Info)

Spinningmagnets,

Better revisit Costa Rica idea.
Friend bought property for retirement there, planed 20+ years the move.
Learned the language etc. Retirement came he moved.
Less than a year later he was back...?
Local rebels took him and wife at gun point, tossed both in the trunk of their car. Rebels drove around for 4 hours discussing whether to kill them or not, they wanted to make an example to other Americans. Lucky for them they chose not. Local police did nothing.
Next day returned to MI. I would have burned my place so another could not get seduced into moving.

Have fun,
Scott.


[ Parent ]



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by tanner0441 on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 11:32:06 AM MST
(User Info)

Hi

Even new dry charged batteries only have a limmited shelf life, a battery that has been used and drained out has already had some of its charge discharge cycles, and the time it can be stored will be very reduced.

Jet Skis come with dry charged batteries and we were advised to fill and charge them within 3 months of receiving them.

If you read back through some of the earlier postings on this site you will most likely find all the answers you need.

Brian



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by bob g on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 06:36:03 PM MST
(User Info)

all dry batteries were once wet when manufactured.

they fill them with electolyte, put them on massive charging racks, fully charge
them, then drain, rinse and redrain.

then they are shipped as dry batteries.

if they are rinsed well, and if you are concerned rinse twice, there wont be enough acid to cause issues.

rolls/surrette advertizes a 5 year shelf life without loss of capacity, i have spoken with their engineering staff and they told me i could go to 10 years with only minimal loss of capacity. i have no idea what minimal is and they wouldn't say.

back in the olden days it was common to drain and rinse batteries and it was reported that they could be stored indefinetly. but again there was no reference what indefinitely means, i would assume that to be a subjective term.

it stands to reason if they were able to do it back in the day with wood seperators the more modern counterparts probably would fair far better.

if it were me, i would order them dry if you have not bought them yet.
but if you have them wet, i would not hesitate to drain/rinse and store them.
i might even go to the trouble to get a cylinder of some inert gas and purge the air out of them and use rubber corks to seal the cells, but i would check with someone like rolls/surrette to see what gas they use. maybe nitrogen would work an it is much cheaper than something like argon, ideally co2 could be used, it being a heavy gas one would not have to use rubber corks just put the caps back on.

any loss of capacity is going to be likely far less than what you would have in long term wet storage having to babysit them.

btw,, rolls produces and sells about 70% of their batteries dry, again they all start out life at the factory as wet cells.

bob g



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by hamlet on Fri Sep 26th, 2008 at 11:15:27 PM MST
(User Info)

Thank you. This is important experience. Bravo!

[ Parent ]


Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by dnix71 (yahoo.com 'dnix71') on Wed Sep 24th, 2008 at 09:21:32 PM MST
(User Info)

If the battery is equalized/charged fully before storage, you should get 6 months before needing to top off, assuming the storage is clean, dry and not either hot or freezing.

Car batteries in your local parts store can sit for months before they are sold. They should be charged fully before using them, but storing them flooded doesn't ruin them.

Smearing some axle grease on the terminals helps lessen self discharge.

If this is some mission critical application, then buying them dry and keeping electrolyte is probably safer, assuming you can secure the electrolyte.

The only batteries sold dry down here are motorcycle batteries. People don't like the idea of selling bags of sulfuric acid to strangers. I've bought electrolyte from a NAPA dealer I did regular business with long ago, but I don't think their insurance would allow it now.

Fire departments don't like the idea of people storing caustics in their homes, either. You know it's there, but they don't. Lawful disposal is another if, too. You can't legally just pour that stuff out.



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by hamlet on Thu Sep 25th, 2008 at 11:37:21 PM MST
(User Info)

I had another thought. If you had a set of batteries that was thoroughly worn out,
wouldn't hold many amp hours any more, yet wasn't shorted and still had 12 or more volts, could you still use it as a buffer/capacitor when the sun was up as long as you didn't remove more amps than what the P.V. could provide, 1 for 1?  I got rid of all my weak batteries, or else I'd give it a try with an inverter and see. I bet you could use weak batteries as long as you didn't exceed the amps of your PV, or use anthing with too much surge current demand, like a washer or table saw.



Re: Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by scottsAI (user name at eml dot cc) on Sat Sep 27th, 2008 at 05:46:22 PM MST
(User Info)

Hamlet,

I need an LCB rated for 90v, and a pump/motor, 90v/2A.

What is LCB? Liquor control board?

Quarter mile or 1320 feet, 2 amps with 16 awg wire will drop 22v
14 awg drops 13.6v. Trade off in panel cost vs wire cost.
Using http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

One panels is 17v x 2a = 34 watts, or $170. $5/w

The wire cost $120 to $200. With shopping who knows what it cost.
I have used standard wire buried for years, worked fine. Keep sun off it.

Completely doable without batteries.
I assume, can't put panels by pump?

Have fun,
Scott.



Long term storage/Dry lead-acid batteries | 29 comments (29 topical, 0 editorial)
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