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Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter


By joeblo22, Section Solar
Posted on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 09:29:28 PM MST
fronius

    Hi I'm curious about what line losses should be expected from a fronius inverter to a grid tie hook up.

I work for a wood stove/ renewable company and we recently installed a fronius grid tie inverter /

The grid tie inverter is using the standard offer grid tie program from the ontario government which pays .42c per kw for energy added to the grid. It has its own meter to monitor energy sent to the grid.

The panel system is around 9 kw a day average.

The fronius states that is has received 714 kw since it was installed (about 3 months give a week or two can't remember what week it was installed)

The utility installed a 120 multiplier meter for the solar side which is hooked up to the 600v line coming into the building.

When installing the fronius they had to use transformers to bump up to the 600v. The rest of the grid tie I was out of the building and the boxes are now safety wired and tagged.
Long story short the fronius inverter is stating 714 kw has been sent out and the grid tie meter installed by the power company is stating 4x 120 it should be 4.5 but doesn't show decimals
So theoretically 540 kw has been boughten by the power company and 714 kw created by solar  therefore we have 174 kw of lost power in a couple months.
Could the transformers have that much loss, or could the wiring be incorrect....
For the conspiracy theorist they installed a downgraded meter to save the utility money ???

Thanks

Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)

Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by wooferhound (tim((NoSpamAt))wooferhound.com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:38:00 PM MST
(User Info) http://wooferhound.com

I'm Sure that you mean kwh (kilowatt hours)
and not kw (kilowatts)
or your message post would not have any meaning ?
W o o f -={(



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by joeblo22 on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:51:27 PM MST
(User Info)

ah yes kwh
or maybe not.... those 10 panels can really pump out the juice when they want to :)



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by SparWeb (sparweb at ANTISPAM_hotmail_com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 04:04:47 PM MST
(User Info)

So Ontario hasn't dumped the pay-back program, yet.  I thought it was about to disappear.  Perhaps the thought of thousands of grid-tied solar house owners explaining to the media how their government hung them out to dry looked more nightmarish than the cost of keeping the program.

Anyway, to the matter at hand: the Fronius does sound like it's keeping a record of what's being collected; for now we will believe what it says.  The other meter, installed by the power company, is telling you what?  Does it directly read 540 KWh or does it read something else?  You did some calculations that didn't go anywhere.
If the meter displays kiloWatt-hours, then the voltage doesn't matter much to its reading.

You're concerned about a fairly large loss; 174/714 = 25%  You haven't given enough information to know if that's all due to the transformer.  The step-up transformer needs a 1:5 ratio to go from 120 to 600 volts.  There probably is a loss through that transformer.  Can you tell us more about how the Fronius manages the grid-tie connection?  Does it shut itself down at night?  Does the inverter collect other data about power output?

Steven Fahey



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by DanG on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 04:44:57 PM MST
(User Info)

 714 less 10% inverter** loss = 642.6 KWh

 642.6 less 1% wiring losses = 636.2 KWh

 636.174 less 8% transformer losses = 585.3 KWH

Without accurate on-site utility acceptance readouts the above figure gets within 7% of your estimated 540 KWh. Unless you sit and watch that readout until it turns over to next unit - or have access to utility accounting summary that is not shabby so far...

** http://tinyurl.com/6pd2yz <-- Spec PDF sheet, Max. efficiency 95.2% ~ 94.4%; doubtful it reaches that except at peak input (winter temperature PV boost) IF system is well balanced...



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by joeblo22 on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 05:04:49 PM MST
(User Info)

Sorry as I was typing .. you posted.
Well with those type of losses broken down it does makes sense.
Its a shame to see those types of losses especially when your counting dollars a day.
Thanks for the clarity


[ Parent ]


Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by joeblo22 on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 04:51:29 PM MST
(User Info)

Hey I thought any publicity was good publicity ... well maybe not with government. There is a meeting planned sometime in November to discuss the whole program ... Not sure what the topics for discussion are, but I'm sure they won't be talking about raising the incentive

"Anyway, to the matter at hand: the Fronius does sound like it's keeping a record of what's being collected; for now we will believe what it says.  The other meter, installed by the power company, is telling you what?  Does it directly read 540 KWh or does it read something else? "

The meter is reading 000004
the multiplier on the meter is 120
The meter has read 4 for about a  12 days, and I estimated roughly that it could roll over to 5 in the next few days(8 kwh a day)

If the meter displays kiloWatt-hours, then the voltage doesn't matter much to its reading.

The meter reads in Kilowatt-hours. I just wanted to let you know that the system was commercial working at 600v and the use of transformers were needed, which do have some loss.

You're concerned about a fairly large loss; 174/714 = 25%  
I thought 25% what pretty large considering the technical data I've read usually estimates 5% for residential(of course perfect lab conditions)
http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/pdf/Fronius/ig_2000_3000_2500lv.pdf
This is the link I just found. At the shop I'm sure they have a lot more info.
We have the 3000 model installed and its output is 240 v

I'm pretty sure it controls the grid connection and it goes into standby at night
I will try to find out some more info tomorrow .

Thanks for the response




Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by electronbaby (roy<at>windsine.org) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 07:09:25 PM MST
(User Info) http://www.windsine.org

Whos responsibility is it to supply the 1:5 transformer? If it is the utility's, then they should meter before the transformer; allowing the losses to be reflected on their end and you being credited for all the energy going into their equipment. Its not your fault that "their" equipment is inefficient!

Well, in a perfect world anyways....  :)

Tell them you are going to to to the newspapers with this. This usually gets them to act very quickly. Or at least thats my experience in the US.  :-P
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by DamonHD (d@hd.org) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 12:29:10 AM MST
(User Info) http://www.earth.org.uk/

Just FYI, my tiny direct grid-tie system (with a Sunny Boy inverter) keeps track of delivered kWh, but also by law I have to have its output go via a separate 'total generation' meter.

Both nominally record output with a precision of 0.1kWh or better.

We're at around the 700 mark since install and the two readings differ from one another by several percent IIRC.  And indeed, the 'total generation' meter by whose reading I will be paid is the more generous of the two!

It's maybe a somewhat less exact science than we'd like.

Rgds

Damon



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 05:02:14 PM MST
(User Info)

If I were in your shoes I'd get my own KWHr meter and install it in my wiring just outside their box.

Then if/when they don't match with mine reading higher by more than a miniscule delta I'd call for repairs to their equipment and a refund of the shortage based on the ratio of the readings.  Then sue them for the shortfall (plus the cost of the meter and court costs) if they don't fix up and cough up.

Don't know how it works there but over here we have a "small claims" court for small value money-only suits, where lawyers are disallowed and the rules of evidence are greatly relaxed.  (The accused can transfer to a full-blown court if they want but it's not usually done.)

Before doing that, check with the company (not identifying yourself or why you want one) to see if they sell refurbished, recalibrated, and (if the type supports this) resealed used meters.  Some power companies do this - for appliance repairmen, landlords who want to meter their tenants, etc.  Such meters tend to be really cheap.  And it would be much harder for them to question the accuracy of your meter if they had sold it to you claiming it was accurate and it had their own intact seal on it.  B-)



Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 07:14:38 PM MST
(User Info)

(Yes I know that the inverter already tracks power.  But it's hard to argue with a KWHr meter - especially the mechanical kind power companies have been using to bill people from about the dawn of AC and the invention of the drag-disk meter until recent silicon tech started displacing them.)

[ Parent ]


Re: Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by tecker on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 05:58:11 AM MST
(User Info)

Sounds like your loosing :bumping up to 600 v along with some current transformer  inefficiency . You might be better served offering a water heating with the overage.



Fronius and line loss to grid tie meter | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial)
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