Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to magnet?


By jaskiainen, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 02:32:32 PM MST
Just wondering the space i have for my coils to use

Iv'e already ordered magnets for my next wind generator.
They are N45 30mm dia 10mm thick.
24 for dual rotor 12/9 design and two more for fun and spare for disasters.
3 phase, 12 volts for starters maybe later 24 volts with new stator.

This should be a quite big leap from my first tryout with 12mm dia 3mm thick
magnets, wich by the way is flying and making some power too.

I've been reading and googling around for days and hours now and can't find
anyone using same size of magnets before. So i might be a pioneer with these.

Also the more i read, the more confused i get (again).
Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to magnet width?

How about the airgap? I know if it goes too big then the genny becomes too
inefficient, but is there somekind of rule of thumb to aim?
Maybe 10mm in this case (one magnet thickness)? Or does it goes like less is more?
It's always easy to open the airgap.

I'm planning on using wire size between AWG 16 - AWG 14.
It depends much on what I can squeeze in my coils.

I've already calculated the turns per coil:
17000 x 13,4 / 200 / 0,6 / 13,14 = 144 / 3 = 48
Is my cutin 200 too low? Should i aim a bit higher? Maybe 220?
Then it would be 43 rounds per coil.

One more thing:
If max amps for AWG 16 wire is 22 amps what is the max amps out of 3 phase genny
using that same wire for coils? Is it 66 amps or 1.73 X 22 = 38 amps?

I just can't find all the answers i'd like to know.
Maybe because i've been working overtime for weeks now and i'm
quite tired when i finally come home. Basicly i just take a shower and eat and
go to sleep only to wake up again in the morning. Theres no recession here.

Best regards jaskiainen

Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to magnet? | 4 comments (4 topical)

Re: Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to m (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 07:13:48 PM MST

My take.  (Subject to correction by anyone who knows the subject better - like having DONE it.  B-)  )

First approximation:
 - Hole is the size of the magnet.
 - Side of the coil is half the width of the hole.
 - Space between magnets is half the width of the magnet.
 - Coils butt up against each other.

In this ideal, where the stator is half-paved with copper and the field goes straight across, this would cause each phase to have a trapezoidal waveform:
 - 1/3 cycle ramp between + and -,
 - 1/6 cycle at -,
 - 1/3 cycle ramp between - and +,
 - 1/6 cycle at +
In Y the phases would be ramping so that as one goes down another in series with it would be going up (as the magnets transition gradually from one coil to the next, keeping an equal number of turns under the poles), resulting in a nearly ripple-free voltage.  (Of course IR drop fouls that a tad.)

Note that is one of the non-sinusoidal waveforms where a delta connection sums to zero and (if we could keep to this ideal waveform) a delta would also have negligible circulating current and a ripple-less rectified output.

In the real world the field spreads out from the poles a tad.  So make the magnet to a tad narrower than the ideal to compensate.  Because the magnet size is fixed that's done by moving 'em out a tad so the spacing is a little more than half the pole width.  Scale the coils up, keeping the leg width = half hole width relation.

Also in the real world the coils are radial, the magnets are rectangles rather than trapezoids / pie segments, and the assembly is not so far from the center that this doesn't cause issues.  So let the hole be wider at the outside than the inside.  Magnet over both sides of the coil cancels out voltage, ending up with turns contributing resistance but no voltage.  Thus err on the side of widening the hole so it's about the size of the "slightly spread pole" near the inside end and has extra gap near the outside end.

"Wasting magnets" means losing potential power generation - and can be compensate by making the magnets stronger, larger, or tightenin the gap.  "Wasting turns" means consuming mechanical power making extra resistive heating without making extra output, which means compensation would require making the swept area larger.  Better to "waste magnets" - and buy strong ones.  The radial flux with the single layer of coils ALREADY "wastes magnets" big time by having the magnets over a hole rather than a coil for about half their travel (and doubling up on the number of super-strong magnets).  A little extra wedge of "wasted magnet" from widening the outer part of the coil hole is almost lost in the noise.



Re: Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to m (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 07:30:17 PM MST

Hmmm...

I wonder if narrowing the coil form slightly on the outside part of the coil so the coil hole would remain (spread) magnet-sized while the coil sides spread out and "paved" the whole sector space would get the waveform closer to the trapezoidal battery-charging ideal?

It would also allow the stator to be cast slightly lenticular, allowing the gap to be set tighter before risking rotor rubbing from bearing slop.  B-)

(Probably an excessive optimization.)

[ Parent ]



Re: Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to m (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by jaskiainen on Wed Oct 28, 2009 at 10:33:00 AM MST

Thanks ULR

So if I get you right my coil leg should be half of the magnet width.
That gives me ID 30mm and OD 60mm for a coil. Using those figures and coil thickness
about 8mm I think I can get 55 rounds of AWG15 to fit in it.
Maybe even AWG14 is doable. Probably I'll do one test coil, one from each and see
wich one I can get closer to fit my startup speed and dimensions.

I'll prefer to keep the coil in magnet shape just because it's easier for me
to wind it up.
I'm a bit excited to get my hands on a real work again.

Oh how about that coil thickness? Less is more, but where it goes too thick?
If I remember it right the airgap should be around one magnet thickness or less?
Thats why I thought of doing my coils 8mm or less thick.

I have no idea what size or TSR blades should I use with this, but I thought
that I'll make this genny first and run it in lathe to get the numbers out.
After that it should be easy to choose a blade size and TSR to match it.
I guess it might be around 7 foot diameter wit about TSR 6 or 7.

Regards jaskiainen
Best regards jaskiainen
[ Parent ]



Re: Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to m (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Mon Nov 02, 2009 at 01:52:41 PM MST

The airgap and the coil thickness (plus clearance gap) should be about the sum of the thicknesses of the two opposing magnets.

Making the gap wider lets you put more turns in but weakens the field and thus lowers the voltage per turn.  A zero gap has the strongest field but no turns, while a humungous gap has lots of turns but essentially no voltage.  There is a peak, and (if I have this right) it's about where the gap equals the total magnet thickness.

Near the peak the curve is about level - like a slow hump - so it's a ballpark rather than a critical adjustment.  By taking the clearance and potting gaps out of the coil's share you err on the side of thinner coil which also cuts resistance.  You also have a strong field which gives you more adjustment room if you need to tune down the genny to match the blades by opening the gap, and the structure is stronger with the rotor supports shorter.

[ Parent ]



Is there an ideal coil leg width compared to magnet? | 4 comments (4 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  75 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· magnet
· Also by jaskiainen

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!