And suddenly found this:
This is 900W grid tie inverter built at home by tcmtech and using wind power to cut down electric bills.
All story is here:
http://www.electro-tech-online.com/alternative-energy/86777-grid-tie-inverter-schematic-6.html
I think this man is going to change the world.
Wind turbines are sometimes not UL listed either. As far as your local utility is concerned, they might only require that the grid tied inverter be UL listed. Here in NY, LIPA territory, they require that modules and inverter be UL approved, and that the inverter also be type tested. They make no statements regarding wind turbines, but this might change with the new certifications coming out for wind turbines soon.
There are no UL requirements for off grid system equipment here, but NO REBATES either. If the utility is going to allow you to interconnect, and or give you money to do so, they require your equipment and system to be safe and reliable and not endanger linemen, or the homeowner. I have installed MANY grid tied systems and off grid systems (over 100 systems now) and I have been amazed at what I have seen people install over the past 6 years (before these guidelines and ethics have been enforced). I have seen some pretty scary stuff done by others as is probably the case of others who have been in this industry for some time. I have seen equipment that has not been properly bonded or grounded exhibit some pretty lethal high voltage upon touching of the module frames and racking. This could cause electrocution, and is caused by rodents snacking on the wires and leaving exposed copper to touch the racking material. I have seen house fires from PV systems. Believe me, all these guidelines and rules and certifications are put in place for safety and insurance purposes even though some of them might seem like a pain in the butt to the average newcomer who doesnt have much experience.Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF[ Parent ]
The issue is what the utility, insurance company, and code enforcement will allow.
They trust UL. It's their money, jobs, and employee lives that are at risk, so they get to make the call.
Our opinion of UL's competence may be fodder for graffiti and internet flames. But it's not germane to the issue.
(That said: I don't have any gripes of my own about UL's competence. They may be far from perfect. But they're SO much better than the available alternatives. Meanwhile I can always chose to do things BETTER than they require when I think it's necessary and still stay within the regulations. B-) )[ Parent ]
You cannot continue to make claims about the "hazards" of this device without providing any shred of proof of you unfounded accusations.
Oh, and this device can be easily be protected with a simple 10 Amp Circuit Breaker. Why would anyone claim that this device cannot be protected or that the Grid cannot be protected from it? Maybe, its because you do not understand how this device works and it is easy for you make false accusations?
Does anyone, have any facts, that can show how this device can fail in the ON Mode?
Rgds
Damon"Once you have licked the windows of freedom your tongue gets stuck."[ Parent ]
Does anyone, have any facts....
My fact is that unless it is stamped with the proper approvals for connection it would be illegal. End of story. That is the only fact that matters. And, no, I will not search out the law that covers it.
Its people like you who will eventually make it impossible to do anything at all home brewed without a herd of legal scumbags on retainer.
Your demands are foolish. We have no responsibility for proving anything to you, sir.
Please go educate yourself.
Anything can fail at any time.
Period, end quote.
Tom
The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it
[ Parent ]
Your own tag line states ...
"... There is no knowledge without questions ..."
So, I thought it was OK for me to ask a question that challenged almost everyone on this website exept the original poster.
First let me clear the air ... 1) I am not promoting the device. 2) I am not debating whether the device is legal or illegal. 3) I am not debating whether UL Listed devices are actually better or not. 4) I agree that all devices can fail - even UL approved devices.
OK? And never did nor do I do not want to discuss any of those issues. Most of the replies to my question have been one of the above "reasons".
Given all that, I simply ask ...
What is the Failure Mode of this device such that it will kill Linesman and Neighbors. How can this device fail ON?
As of yet I have had no reply to that question. And that is OK with me, it is very possible that none of you have an answer. I am not sure why that "stirs the pot"? If there is no answer forthecoming then I have my answer. I think people do have a responsibility to explain their statements when asked a reasonable question. My question is reasonable since many posters stated this situation can happen.
I asked a question that required the other posters to think really hard and to explain their statments. Is that so wrong?
Is that really any reason to ban someone?
I thought by now someone would say the device would fail ON if ... 1) One of the IGBT's shorted out 2) The Control Transformer had an open in the secondary winding. 3) A mouse chewed through the Center Tap wire. 4) Something ? 5) Anything ? 6) We don't know. But as of yet there has been no answer to my question.
Look at what you haved stated about me for asking my question:
" ... Its people like you who will eventually make it impossible to do anything at all home brewed without a herd of legal scumbags on retainer."
"... Please go educate yourself ..."
Tom, that was not very nice. Your own "Post Comments" states: Please be nice.
If nobody can answer my question then I accept that.[ Parent ]
You made up your mind it can not, so nothing anyone says will be taken seriously.
How about this? Grid goes to a brown out condition, then drops. The IGBTs are latched up. Transformer starts a fire. Fire spreads to the neighbors house killing him. He did not wake up from the fire department sirens because he was up all night working on an unresolved issue that caused the grid to go down because he is a lineman on midnight shift.
"You cannot continue to make claims about the "hazards" of this device without providing any shred of proof of you unfounded accusations." Actually, as I see it, they have a moral obligation to do exactly that.
I have gone >145MPH on a public road. It caused no accidents, deaths, injuries, damage, or financial loss. Therefor I should recommend it as being safe unless YOU want to PROVE it is not? Of course not. The concept is asinine.
At least one person in this thread designed items that have the UL Listing. I doubt anyone will attempt 'a intelligent discussion' with someone making the statements you thrive on.
I'm done.Ghurd.info[ Parent ]
What it boils down to, is if your electric provider finds such a device wired to your system, without a permit and approval, you WILL loose your electrical service, until your ENTIRE wiring is inspected , and approved. This could actually end up costing much more than a good, UL approved grid tie inverter,(which will have to be inspected upon installation by an inspector)
I'm a firm believer in DIY, however if you are tieing into the grid, do it legally or you'll eventually pay through the nose!
The only real way to circumvent this is to have separate circuits for your own RE and incoming electricity that you pay for. [ Parent ]
And 10A at 120V (or 230V or whatever) is easily enough to kill without tripping at that voltage or at the reduced current when the voltage is stepped up as described above. Indeed, milliamps at higher voltages would probably be enough. I'm sure that Wikipedia has the numbers.
You sound hysterical in your post. Were I working on a line I wouldn't want someone who sounds over-inflated, myopic, shrill and hysterical making wild guesses at what might or might not endanger me. I'd like a clear set of rules thought about by calm experienced people who know and care about lethal situations forcing all generation to disconnect and stay disconnected when things are going badly wrong.
Would you like to make a personal attack on me too?
You claim that this device can push Volts/Amps into a Dead Grid - Prove it. Prove that this device can even push a Milliamp into a Dead Grid. You made the claim now you support your statements with facts. That is not hysterical - that is the scientific method.
The people who are claiming that Linesmen and Neighbors will get Killed and I will get charged with Murder I because of this device and its design are in fact the people who are hysterical.
I want to see facts but all I have seen are "... over-inflated, myopic, shrill and hysterical posters making wild guesses ..." about how this device actually works.
Yes or no, Do know how this device works? If no, then how can defend making false claims as to how you THINK this device could fail?[ Parent ]
Stop trolling this thread and go away.
You are acting foolishly and being silly.
You joined this very morning to simply stir the pot on this thread.
STOP take it to the source website it is not acceptable here.
Either offer some meaningful dialog or just go away.
What I consider to be advocating and promoting an unsafe and illegal activity would be grounds enough to remove your account but I will give you a chance to act as an adult and control yourself.
And that is my official position.
I resisted putting this project in the RE projects forum due to the nature of the project and it was put in a sub forum called 'alternate energy'. I have worked really hard to revamp that RE forum so more experienced RE people could come in and more exciting projects could be undertaken. IN NO WAY AM I TRYING TO TAKE PEOPLE AWAY FROM THIS FORUM. This work I'm doing on the electro-tech forum is meant to be a complement to this forum and where possible I do encourage people to visit this forum as the content on this forum is irreplaceable.
Cheers Bryan
UL should have no issues building a really cheap (sub $100) box that would shut off your "homebrew" GTI. Will it happen? Not anytime soon.
How about taking a 2000 watt class D* car audio amp and running it through a 2 or 3:1 transformer direct to the grid? I figure an entirely analog sync circuit is possible. It would be cheaper than his design and still hit 75%. Good enough for me.
I am not advocating building such a device. Some have said that it is legal for you to overdrive a 3 phase induction motor into the grid, depending on your location. Above 10-20hp this is cheaper and more reliable than a GTI. (10-20 cents per watt**, 100hp should get you 94% times 94% or about 88% end to end with good bearings and completely enclosed hydrogen cooling.)
I fail to see any reason to waste time building a homebrew GTI, when the reason you can't use them is due to regulatory bull$hit.
Some have said a dead grid is a dead grid. Next time the power is out go measure the line voltage with a dvm. Now hook up a 3 phase motor (might need some capacitors) and send a few kilowatts up-line, let me know what it is. I bet 100$ you could hit 500 volts easy on a standard 7200 volt line. 500vac is only 7% line voltage, and still lethal.
*they are all class D these days, even the 5 watt surface mount chip inside your TV. **Right now the synchronous drive in a hybrid car is running at 3-6 cents a watt, that includes the motor and inverter, so my estimate is a little high. Ebay can get you a 40 hp motor at 2 cents a watt
Many members could build one at home. I expect a few members have, and received UL stickers.
Forget killing a lineman for the time being.
The first problems. Call your insurance company and tell them it is connected. Call your grid provider and tell them it is connected.
The second problems. Anyone who needs someone else's schematic to build one does not completely understand the complexities. The insurance, grid, and UL entities have reasons for doing what they do. This is past the stuff a 20A fuse will protect against. Do you want your children to sleep a house that if it burns the insurance will not pay for?
Needs to get it UL listed and mass produced if he is going to change the world. Should be able to get them to market for about $1 million? G- Ghurd.info
I'd be astonished if most other places with any sort of stable grid don't follow the same sort of pattern.
Utilities and regulators don't want to take chances with people trying to save a few $$$ and then killing themselves, neighbours and utility employees.
Damon"Once you have licked the windows of freedom your tongue gets stuck."
I'm more than happy to take all sorts of silly risks, but not at the expense of others. This is a cool idea, but not one I would contemplate (and I contemplate a lot of silly things)
On a small island I know all the linesman by name, and I don't wish to lose any of them by my negligence or ill conceived /possibly failed contrivances.
Not something I would encourage.... money..... is not as important as people.....although sometimes I wonder if the government is aware of that?
............oztules[ Parent ]
Read my Lips.
This is a bad idea and only someone with no regard for safety would attempt such a thing.
The internet is crammed with bad ideas. This is definitely one of them. I noticed every other comment so far agrees with what I will point out here.
Its your choice, of course.
If you like to gamble with other peoples safety then be prepared to live with the consequences. Those could be anything from nothing, death, prison or being beaten to death by people related to those you harm.
People building things like this and installing them will bring more regulations limiting my freedom so just don't do it. I won't threaten to personally beat you severely about the head and shoulders but the thought has already crossed my mind.
Then we get to the reality of DIY that very few of these internet circuits actually work at all. So you build 5 of them before one "works" then how long will it last and how much have you wasted in resources when a one time purchase of a quality inverter would get you there easily, safely and legally?
Again just my [strong] opinion[s]. And because you asked...
Then if your house burned down you could play dumb and say you bought it commercially and didn't know it needed to be listed.
If you really don't like paying electric bills that much, just go off grid and use only battery powered devices charged from solar or wind.[ Parent ]
cheers bob golding
I do see a picture of something that is supposed to be an inverter, (and maybe an IGBT nodule), but I bet that thing just turns off first time the grid goes out... If it doesn't blow up first !
Does he show a picture of his wind turbine ? I didn't see that either. Otherwise, this might be called "Guerrilla Wind".
boB [ Parent ]
No UL approval = Your insurance won't pay off if your house burns down, even if it isn't the energy system that lit it. Bye-bye house and contents. (And all those premiums you paid which are also gone.)
Grid might cut you off if you're discovered. Your stuff better work then because it's all the power you'll have. (And then there's the fines...)
Error in design backfeeds a local grid failure, creating an "island" of hot multi-kilovolt wiring on top of the poles when the lineman comes out to fix things and expects them to be cold. Kill him and it's murder-II or murder-III depending on whether you knew your screwup might kill him. Now that you've read this it's murder-II.
Grid tie is not for homebrew. Grid tie is for approved off-the-shelf inverters installed according to code. (You can do the rest of the system yourself if you stay within code on it. But not the grid-tie inverter design and construction.)
This is bad idea. I am agree, most people didn't have enough knolege to build this. Grid tie inverter full schematic and build information You can Buy at eBay from tcmtech soon. Thank God full schematic not presented at electro-tech-onlile forum. Now nobody can't try this at home.
BR,
Margus[ Parent ]
boB[ Parent ]
