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Not sure if I want to buy or build???
By Bischofk, Section Wind Posted on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 11:59:55 PM MST
Not sure if I want to buy or build???

So Ive been crunching the numbers, and unless I was to build most of the parts of the wind generator myself, it appears I will still be shelling out a substantial amount of money for the unit. The cost of the kit from www.otherpower.com for metal work, which doesnt include a stator, blades, or the magnets is $425 (303 Pounds) before shipping. So when all is said and done, I could easily spend another $300+ on blades, magnets, magnet wire, and misc items such as resin, plywood and all other items needed for this task. Also Otherpower sells complete kits, and for the 7ft turbine and they want $1200 before shipping. On Ebay I was looking at a retail wind generator Link . It claims to be rated a 500w in an 18 mph wind, which seems pretty darn good actually. It also includes the charge controller as well, all for about $785 (560 Pounds). Seems like not such a bad deal to me???? For the price, I could get two of these things and still be about the same price as the 300w unit from www.otherpower.com. So unless these retail generators are pieces of crap, Im not sure how I can justify all the work, while spending the same or more when building it myself.
What are your thoughts?

Not sure if I want to buy or build??? | 21 comments (21 topical)

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Bischofk on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:01:50 PM MST

Link was pasted incorrectly

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310130810428&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:112 3

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by TomW on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:43:55 PM MST

Fixed it in the story.

Tom

Ignarus can exsisto rememdium. Sardus est forever

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by electronbaby on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 06:46:45 PM MST

If the company is telling the truth, and they are willing to back you up every time you have a problem or failure, then I dont see what wrong with that. Im just pretty sure you will be back asking questions when the machine has a failure. If you are willing to take the risk, thats great. Make sure to keep us posted on how it works out for you.

I dont see a power curve posted, so buyer beware.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by David HK on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 07:14:36 PM MST

Are you good with your hands and do you have skills in basic metalwork and woodwork?

If Yes, its always good fun to build your own wind turbine and there are many people on this web site that can answer any question you pose.

If you would like to self build, a good starting point would be the purchase of Hugh Piggot's book How to build a wind turbine. His designs offer 12, 24, and 48 volt coil winding options and churn out something in the region of 500 Watts if you are in a good wind area. (Search Giigle for Hugh Piggot - he's easy to find and lives on the Scoraig Peninsula UK).

I've built two of his 8' (2.4 metre) diameter swept area in tandem, but I have enhanced the design and used stainless steel throughout except for the magnet rotors. My philosphy is that anything in the renewable energy fiel should be designed for minimum maintenance and last 100 years.

As for costs and todays prices based on current day exchange rates between the Hong Kong Dollar and UK pound each machine material cost was in the order of UK pounds - 270; outside lathe work - 450 (I could do my own lathe work, but decided it was cheaper to farm it out); coil winder home made with counter - 16 pounds; fibreglass coil mould - 23; control panel on stainless steel stand including ammeter, shunt, shunt-regulator, terminals - 48; Tachometer optional extra purchased from the UK with micro-processor - 15.

The costs may appear high to some people, but its the best one-off expenditure I have ever made. These costs were spread over many months and thus caused no pain as compared with lump sum outlay.

Check my files for photographs.

David HK

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Bischofk on Sat Mar 28, 2009 at 10:43:12 PM MST

To the above poster concerning the power curve. Your right, there isnt one. However after doing all the math, given the numbers they provide. It does seem to be the real deal. At least whoever provided the numbers they seem to be right on par with expected values for Watts in a given wind speed, at a given efficiency, with a given TSR. So the REAL question is how durable is it? Im guessing its not all that durable, because you pretty much always get what you pay for!

Yes, Im pretty handy, but unfortunately I do not have any serious metal working tools. For example I dont have a welder (though I do have a friend who does), nor do I have a lathe, cnc or any other device to cut steel. So I think my only real option would be to farm out the machining, which really seems to add alot to the DIY cost.

That all being said, I do believe that these machines built here using Piggot's design seem to be quite solid. My only issue is that im going to have to do a hell of a lot of leg work and spend alot of time (perhaps months) putting this thing together w/out all the tools on hand :(.

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by luv2weld on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 08:35:16 AM MST

The answer to your question (to build or buy)lies within YOU!
If you're looking for excuses not to build, I'm sure you can find
them. And as you stated yourself, you get what you pay for.

If you enjoy making things with your own hands, you'll find a way to
do it even if you don't have all the fancy tools.

Do you need a lathe??? NO. It's just an easy way to test things.

Do you need a hole saw?? NO. It just takes longer and a little more
thought to figure it out.

Do you have a chainsaw?? Or a friend that owns one??
Then you can make a set of blades.

If you have a hand held drill and a hacksaw and a file, you can build a wind
turbine. You said you have a friend with a welder. What else do you need??

A lot of the work of making something with just hand tools
is the mind set that you go into it with. Instead of thinking about
the drudgery of how hard it is to cut a piece of steel with a hacksaw,
think about what a good exercise workout your arms are getting. It's
good cardiovascular exercise too. You can almost feel the muscles
getting larger. Why pay to go to a gym, when you can get a better
workout at home and build something at the same time.
Plus the satisfaction of saying I made it myself.

On the other hand, if you're more comfortable showing people
what you've bought, how much money you have (had), then buy
a wind generator. I know someone like this. He busted his
hump to buy an Air X and get it up before I finished building
my generator. Does it keep his batteries charged?? NO.

In his haste to get it up, he hooked the wires to the output of
his solar panels. Didn't want to spend the extra money to buy
the wire for a separate run to the battery bank. So when the
sun is shining, the controller in his Air X thinks the batteries
are in good shape and puts the brakes on his generator!!!
Plus he needs 28 mile an hour winds for this thing to start producing
and it has to be after dark!! Mine starts producing at about 7 miles
an hour, whether it's light or dark.

Been like this for 3 years now. Has he made any effort to fix it???
NO!!! But, Hey, he has a wind generator to show everyone!!!!

Ralph
"The best way to kill time is to work it to death!!"

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by Bischofk on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 01:58:40 PM MST

Ralph,

I very much love to do projects like this. I ALWAYS try to do DIY when I can. Its very rare that I hire anyone to do anything. But when it comes to a product, I often do my research and try to determine if I can feasibly DIY it myself. In this case I think the answer is definitely YES. HOWEVER, I have to weigh cost. IF IF IF, I know I can save money building it myself, and know it will work as good or better, then I will build it 99% of the time. But in this case, after adding up the numbers, im seeing the cost of this project going up and up, and likely even surpassing that of a retail generator.

As for your buddy...well not sure how I can comment on that other than he seems pretty foolish to me. Why buy a wind generator if you dont even bother to set it up correctly? I can assure you that if I buy one I will install it myself, and do it correctly (hopefully the first time).

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by electronbaby on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 02:42:16 PM MST

The question you have is mainly a philosophical one.

I have MANY people ask me the same type of questions, and I try to give them the most honest answers I can based on years of experience with renewable energy (both PV and wind).

To put it simply, you are traveling a line or a route to the ultimate solution. There are obstacles along the way, but ultimately, you will try to make it to your destination. I usually refer to the fact you are starting at point "A" and traveling to point "B".

Point A being that wind energy has your interest peaked as a viable solution, and point B, you obtain a working, functional system for MANY YEARS. Again, obtaining and installing the turbine, at first, does not get you to point B.

In my honest opinion (as well as others Im sure), you will experience maintenance issues with ANY turbine, it sort of comes with the territory so to speak. This is not a bad thing, but simply must be factored into your time and money spent traveling the route from A to B.
You will most likely be learning some of the basic principals and physics behind why and how wind energy works either way you go (whether with a purchased unit, or with a home built unit) whether you like it or not.

Now that thats out of the way, yes, you will most likely spend more time and money on the home built unit. This extra time and money is directly offset by the lesser amount of time and money required to keep the machine operating for the duration of its lifetime. Since you will be learning the most while building it, you will already know how it is supposed to operate. You will know how it is supposed to sound. You will know when it needs attention hopefully before you run into further issues. I can not speak the same of any commercially available turbine, simply because the end user never travels this part of the design process route. I do understand that building turbines is not in everybody's best interest. It requires learning and sometimes, people REFUSE to do this unless they are forced to,....so...

The cost of a quality commercial unit, and the home built unit are really not that far off after you examine the WHOLE picture. You can pay up front, or you can usually end up paying later. Either way you go, you will learn about wind while ultimately trying to reach Point B.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by electronbaby on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 02:54:43 PM MST

I also just wanted to state the fact that only YOU will know what you can afford or not.

Going forward, just be prepared to look at the whole picture, not just what gets the machine initially to the tower top.
Have Fun!! RoyR KB2UHF
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Bischofk on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 07:11:15 PM MST

Honestly its not even a matter of what I can afford. Its a matter of trying to be smart with my money. It is a risk to try to build something yourself, because as good as the guides and books are. There is no guaranty that it will work when im done. If it does work, it may be very inefficient. I DO have faith that I have read enough to build a pretty solid "Piggot" wind generator, I just question if its worth the time.

Probably the biggest concern I have in this project is the blades. It sure looks like making the blades would be a major task. I have no clue how you guys carve them by hand and have them come out nearly identical and balanced. Out of the whole project, the blades seem the most daunting...so im fairly certain I would be buying blades for this thing unless someone can convince me that making the blades is really easier than it looks.....

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by bob golding on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 01:44:12 PM MST

hi,
making the blades is a lot easier than you think. if you are in the uk all you need to do is go to b and q or jewsons and buy the following items.

1 length of 2 x 6 roofing truss 6 metres long( about 8 quid.)
a spokeshave.(around a tenner)
a decent saw, b and q irwin panel saw (around 6 quid.)
a small plane( about a fiver.)
sandpaper,paint brushes stone to sharpen the tools.

i assume you have clamps and a workmate. get ed lenzs blade layout off his website. will take you about 2 days total to make a set. the hardest part is sawing down the grain, about 1 hour with the panel saw. i have made 3 sets with just those tools. i do have a power planer but found it was too a easy to overdo it and it is noisy and dusty.
try it it really isn't that difficult. it all depends on how much you think your time is worth.

cheers
bob golding

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by Jon Miller on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 01:58:50 PM MST

Hi there,

With regards the crap that is coming out of China on the cheap, you do get what you pay for.

Im in Cornwall and have seen three cheap Chinese turbines go up within the last 6 months, non of them are now working, non of them lasted the first heavy wind!

They use cast parts where they shouldnt and they all seem to brake.

If you want a well posted link to someone who has dealt with the Chinese crap have a good old read of this link.

http://tiny.cc/w0YYi

Then wounder if its worth the trouble of getting one.

Are you in the UK, not to take business away from F/L but I can send you a set of steel work for the 10' turbine for 200 pounds.

If you really want to buy a turbine then a Miniwind 2000 would be a wise investment in my opinion.

hope this helps

Regards

Jon M

www.otherpower.co.uk "I am certainly not a perfectionist, the thing is to know where you can take short c
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by Bischofk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 09:06:12 PM MST

Actually I live in the Midwest. I just posted Pounds with the USD for the folks who do live in the UK. I see many of these websites have ALOT of UK people on them.

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by luv2weld on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 09:25:33 AM MST

The other thing that we have not commented on is the rating
of the commercial generator that you are considering.

They are trying to sell you something, so do you think maybe they
are exaggerating a little bit???

One thing we can say for a fact is, all the DIY generators are
under rated. We are not trying to make any money off you.

I guess what we need to establish is---How many people that
have one of the commercial things are really happy with it????
Oh, wait. Let's make sure those are people not connected with
the company.

And how long have they been flying it?? If it's only been
flying for 2 weeks, they are probably still happy with it.
Need to know how long the company has been around and what
their maintenance and customer service record is.

If you have some kind of problem with it, how long is it going
to be down and will they even answer your emails for help??We
have heard quite a few horror stories here about companies
ignoring people when they asked for help with a problem.

If you build it yourself, you understand every part of it and
know exactly what to do to fix it.

Also instead of laying out your money all in one shot(buying
the commercial generator), you can buy the parts in monthly
installments. Might not have it up and flying as fast, but
it doesn't hurt as much all at once.

We can understand your hesitation, especially about carving
a set of blades. Especially if you are not normally a wood
worker. So, who would you consider the least likely person
to jump in and carve a set of blades???
How about a cardiothoracic anesthesiologist????

Here is a link to his latest set of blades. He
has quite a few posts about his Blade Carving Adventures.
I have a lot of admiration for this guy!!

Ralph
"The best way to kill time is to work it to death!!"
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by luv2weld on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 09:28:43 AM MST

Guess I must be brain dead!!! Forgot to include the link!!

http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/

Ralph

"The best way to kill time is to work it to death!!"
[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by cdog on Sun Mar 29, 2009 at 08:20:49 PM MST

The blades are what I was afraid of as well, I did them last.....
They were the easiest part of the project, go figure.

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by pepa on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 11:42:50 AM MST

Bischofk, you have just about talked yourself into bying a prebuilt unit so i would pick DanB's prebuilt machines and all of its preformise records and the level of backup and advice that goes with it. you will pay a little more but you will be satisfied with the finished project if you have the wind. pepa

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by Bischofk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 09:08:50 PM MST

Not so fast :). Im still looking into building one. But just havent landed on my design quite yet.

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by cyplesma on Tue Mar 31, 2009 at 08:43:14 PM MST

only 2 cents I'll add is...

there are many variables to consider, but ultimately you just need to start, one way or the other. It's not a race, it's not about how high tech, or even how low tech you can go. simply get r done at the speed your comfortable with.

myself, I'm still working on mine and I bought my magnets 2005, 2004? I don't even remember when. got them glued to the rotor, got two sets of coils wound up (right now only have one in place, considering testing with the two). got a nice output, still have to resin the stator, cut some blades, and find a way to mount the blades. and get the thing in the air.

take your time, go at your own pace, and enjoy it either way. 8 )

[ Parent ]

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build??? (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by Bischofk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 at 09:06:35 PM MST

Midwest USA that is :)

Re: Not sure if I want to buy or build ??? (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by Shelly on Sat Apr 04, 2009 at 01:14:05 PM MST

Writing from bitter experience be very careful if you decide to buy a ready made generator. I bought a ARI 750 from a dealer in Spain. In the first real wind the blades broke bending the tail. The controller wasn't worth the space it occupied causing the inverter to shut down from over voltage. The dealer has totally6 ignored my emails and ARI in America promised much and has done nothing. The generator itself seems highly effective turning out 93 amps at 17 volts, the service crap. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

Not sure if I want to buy or build??? | 21 comments (21 topical)

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