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Ghurd - can you help ? control advice


By Dave B, Section Controls
Posted on Wed May 20, 2009 at 08:19:57 AM MST
3 KW 24 VDC 16' Axial - Trace 3624

Ghurd or anyone with opinions,

  I am currently re-winding my stator for 24 VDC for battery charging with my 16' axial machine. I plan to limit it's output to 3 KW fully furling which will be at approx. 250-300 RPM.

 I own a Trace 3624 inverter / charger and would like to dump to hot water heating elements to avoid over charging. Obviously I can go the Trace Controller or similar route possibly purchasing 2 units to safely be able to dump 3000 watts or (as I would prefer) to make my own diversion control.

 I am sure most have seen the 400 A rated switching relays advertised out there for about $50.00 ea. Ghurd, what about using your controller to trigger a relay such as this which would switch the DC output from the batteries to the heating elements at selected fully charged (high) battery voltage ?

 I will have at least 800 AH worth of battery bank @ 24 VDC. Most likely 8 L-16's or similar. Seems very simple to me and I plan to be purchasing one of your controllers very soon besides. Would the circuit require any modifications from your standard that you or I could handle OK ? Thanking you and others for any replies.  Dave B.  

Ghurd - can you help ? control advice | 14 comments (14 topical)

Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by ghurd on Wed May 20, 2009 at 09:16:44 AM MST

Only 3KW???  LOL

I am guessing 24VDC elements.

Must be 50 ways to do it.

It could operate a giant relay as long as the hysteresis was set considerably higher than normal.  I am anti-relay for most things.
Maybe a giant self contained IGBT.  Or 2.

I figure this will need to be several heating elements.  How many?  What rating each?

My circuit is single stage.  With 800AH at 24V, might consider something 3 stage, or at least do manual equalization with my circuit.

There are some current capacity boosting hacks that can be done to a popular multi-stage controller you did not mention.  It would be an option.  
Not sure I want to throw them out for general public viewing.

Do you have a back-up plan in case the water gets too hot?
G-
Ghurd.info



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Wed May 20, 2009 at 10:19:48 AM MST

I am not sure of all your facts so this may be way off the mark but I believe your original scheme was direct heating into resistors. When you change to battery charging a lot of things can happen.

If the alternator is efficient then it will stall the prop as a battery charger and your power out will be way down on what you saw before. If the alternator is not stiff enough to hold the thing in stall then you will still see much less power into the batteries yet you will see a great increase in stator heating so you may need to rethink the furling point.

If the alternator is stiff enough to stall the blades then if you want lots of heat then I would add one heater as a series resistance in the dc line to the battery after the rectifier. This will be a really awkward resistance and you may struggle with a commercial heater. It will let the mill run as previously away from stall and your total power out ( heat plus battery input) should be similar to previously. You will see an increase in battery charging capability compared to running stalled. You will still need to watch stator current limits but you will get more battery power and the additional heat for a given stator heating.

Having got part of the heat directly you then will still need to divert excess power as heat when the batteries are charged.

" I am sure most have seen the 400 A rated switching relays advertised out there for about $50.00 ea. Ghurd, what about using your controller to trigger a relay such as this which would switch the DC output from the batteries to the heating elements at selected fully charged (high) battery voltage ? "

That is a pretty deadly form of control and will take some handling. You change from battery load with stall to resistive load with or without it and things will either stall out or get away.

Normal diversion loads work with the battery connected and you just divert excess current to maintain battery volts. I don't think much of relays to do this at the sort of current you are expecting. It is really far better done with some form of pwm control either intentional or brought about by a small differential switching load using battery voltage rise due to surface charge to do the proportioning.

To do what you propose with switching away from the batteries to a heater needs a fairly clever controller or lots of careful selection of resistors and a fair bit of luck and you will probably not find relays up to the job for long although you might get away with a series diode and divert before the diode so that you still have the battery to catch things when the heater looses control but you will be in stall mode and heat production may be rather disappointing.

With a correctly chosen series line heater and a pwm dump you get a decent battery charging scheme with a fairly effective and simple heater control, not ideal from either point of view but a good compromise.

Flux




Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by Dave B on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:26:48 AM MST

 Thanks guys for the replies. Priority now will be as a battery charger and dumping the load will be secondary as  battery protection. Ideally running most efficient as both would be great but realistically if I can run a fairly efficient battery charger and drag down the alternator with the diversion load this would be fine. Kill 2 birds with one stone by limiting the speed in stall.

 I had quite a large airgap before which was needed for start up as direct heating and approx. 100 VAC unloaded @ 300 RPM. I have given myself leeway both ways for airgap on the new stator winding for 24 V cut in at approx. 100 RPM.

 As usual, I don't seem to do anything too easy but I like a challenge. Heating water direct took a lot of experimenting to be successful and it sure worked very well for the size of the machine. I would suggest to anyone wanting a heater only machine to go with 20'+ diameter and upwards of 10 KW. I pretty much ran my 16' on the edge but knew where that was. It looks like I'm in for another round of experimenting. Any other ideas on this controller sure are appreciated.  Dave B.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by ghurd on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:33:53 AM MST

Do you want to operate the heating elements directly from the windmill when the battery is full?

Or operate the heating elements from the battery when the battery is full?
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Dave B on Wed May 20, 2009 at 02:56:29 PM MST

Ghurd,

  Interesting question. Could you explain further how each would function ? I guess I had always thought of the first scenario of completely switching off the charging of the batteries when fully charged at a specific voltage and having the alternator then run the dump load direct. This of course until the batteries drop below a certain voltage for the alternator to again switch off the dump load to again charge the batteries.

  If the batteries were to power the dump load how would this be set up ? Is there a best way or easier way for this type of control ? I am a supporter of the kiss concept and another reason why I worked so hard to heat water direct, no controller.

  I could always purchase the controllers available but I would like to utilize the talent found here and possibly save a buck besides. Like so much of this it sounds simple, I know otherwise. Thank you for your help.  Dave B.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Flux on Wed May 20, 2009 at 03:14:29 PM MST

I will leave most of this to Ghurd. I did indicate in my last reply that the conventional way is to leave the mill connected to the battery and divert excess current to maintain constant battery volts. This is simple and foolproof.

Once you isolate the battery you have the problem of feeding a mill to a heating load. Not an easy situation unless you are prepared to use a cube law power controller. As you already know the simple idea of feeding a mill into a fixed resistor is at best full of compromises although you would eliminate the start up problem with the battery and changeover relay approach.. There is no one value of resistor that will work over much of a wind speed range, it either stalls the turbine or lets it run away.

Flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ghurd on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:14:14 AM MST

Switching the windmill from charging the battery to supplying the heating elements would be a nightmare.

Plus it would be kind of hard to keep the battery voltage accurately controlled.  Say the battery has a load, the wind is blowing well, and the battery gets 'full'.  The windmill changes over to the heating elements. I don't know how many milliseconds, but not many dozen, the battery voltage would drop considerably (0.25V?) and the controller switches back from the heating elements to battery charging.  It happens fast, relay chatter kind of fast.

The normal way is to have the battery power the heating elements.
Nightmares go away.  The windmill is running normally because it is still charging the battery.  The heating elements are running at a known fixed voltage.
The battery voltage can be controlled more closely with much less effort.

KISS.  Imagine the heating elements are on a switch.  And a ultra fast-fingered elf with a volt meter turns on the switch when the battery reaches 28.8V, and turns it off when it drops to 28.6V.
You get to pick the voltages.

It happens fast.  It can be speed up or slowed down a little.  I was told by someone smarter than me that is plenty fast enough.
Not sure if you saw this, but a few scope pics showing the speed and battery voltage.
There is a blip in the battery voltage pic, but it's the only one I have.
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww20/ghurd1/Ghurd%20Controller%20O-Scope/

Hope that link works this time.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by oztules on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:44:17 AM MST

Dave,
I am about to do the same thing but with a 96v battery bank. I will be using Ghurds system, as it seems sensible and simple (Like that part). My turn on will be somewhere around 112v. The battery should allow the controller to act as a PWM output device, using the battery SOC plate charge as the relaxation oscillator.

I suspect this pulsing will be beneficial to the battery's internal architecture as well, but that is open for debate.

My mill is only 4m... but have the wind site to make it look much bigger.

A second controller will sense the water temp, and then divert to a normal resistive load on water o/temp (60 deg C for a start)

All the best with it

..........oztules



[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by KEG on Wed May 20, 2009 at 08:31:12 PM MST

Dave:
Just a thought, what model is the inverter (sw) or (dr) if it is the SW and I under stand your question, the SW I have will at a adjustable number in the inverter will switch and send power to the (grid or in your case elements to heat water ).
I have not done mine that way so if some one can find fault in my thought's let me know as I am only working on a second grade Ed here. :-)
Kevin


Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Dave B on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:04:53 AM MST

Keg,

  It's a DR 3624. Thanks for the thought and as you note I see no way on this model to switch the load similar to the SW, sure wish I could.  Dave B.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ruddycrazy on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:49:25 AM MST

Hi Dave,
         After reading this whole thread a couple of times I reckon RossW's shunt controller circuit based on a LM358 opamp could do the trick. I made one for my 24 volt 700ah array which has 350 watts of PV and my 2hp conversion hooked to it. As i'm using old agm's I just set the trip point to 28.8 volts then 2 169 amp fets in parrallel switch the load to a resistive dumpload set to dump around 18 amps. I ended up going for those big fets as I have blown smaller fets when the sun was shining and the wind was going full bore. Just by setting 1 resistor and 1 cap will give a longer/shorter dwell time. Now if your genny is outputting max amps and the batteries are full the shunt circuit will be on fulltime, as soon as the turbine drops off the battery voltage will drop and charging can start again.

Just a few thoughts

Cheers Bryan



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by ghurd on Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 10:55:35 AM MST

Now that it is up and running directly into the elements,
And doesn't get out of super-hard stall until 15MPH,
Do you know the operating voltage when running in 15MPH wind?

Once it starts running at 15MPH, does it keep running at say 12MPH?

I have an idea about how to let it freewheel until say 12MPH, then cut in.
Do you think that would help?  I do, but I don't know.
G-
Ghurd.info



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by Dave B on Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 01:33:43 PM MST

Ghurd,

  This article was in print many months ago and just now released online as back issues. Since then like I mention above I have rewired this machine for 24 VDC battery charging with cutin figured for about 90-100 RPM.

  I have yet to purchase my batteries but the machine is up and running again with heating element loads. (obviously a different load configuration to keep it under control) I still am interested in a heating control circuit for my future machine of larger diameter as this was so successful it's time to bump it up a notch next time.

  If you have ideas for this circuit you would like to share I'm all ears, it's a tricky thing at least for me to work out other than a stepped bang bang circuit which I have already successfully run utilizing the LM3914.

  Thank you for your reply and what about your present controller for my battery charging system ? For this we're talking about possibly +3KW intermittently.  Dave B.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ghurd - can you help ? control advice (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by ghurd on Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 03:00:48 PM MST

I was thinking I missed a step in there somewhere.

I was thinking single step bang bang after the thing got up to speed.

The stepped LM3914 is about as good as it will get, at least as good as it will get and still be simple.

Might be able to take the 3914 output to 'something', then to PWM.
I thought about it before.  Don't remember how much I pursued the idea.
First thought is it would be cheap if the phases are separated as before.
Cheaper to deal with 60A 3 times, than 100+A.

For the battery charge controller, with all the bells and whistles, there is still the amperage boosting hack to something that rhymes with "TS".
The loads for the original controller and the hack need to be separate.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Ghurd - can you help ? control advice | 14 comments (14 topical)
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