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Newbie VAWT
By danwatchorn, Section Newbies Posted on Sat May 30, 2009 at 01:57:19 AM MST
Newbie needs coil advice for VAWT

So yeah I'm a Newbie that wants to get his feet wet building a VAWT. I know what I want the structure to look like but I have no clue about the coils and mags. I want the coils around a 6" diameter shaft. I want to produce electicity that can possibly be grid tied, so I can rape the local power company at will lol
Full discription:
VAWT within a 4 part helical, venturi housing
6" diameter hollow monopole
Coils (preferably moveable, on the pole)mounted facing outward from the pole
uncertain: number, gauge, number of windings
Magnet/blade structure. Magnets placed vertically inside a cicular structure that is attached to, at least, a three blade sytem
Ball bearings between the rotor and stator for stabilization
Rare earth magnet "frictionless" bearings below the generator (about 200 lbs of pull force)to support friction from gravity
The reason for the whole inside out rotor/stator design on a hollow monopole is to allow height of the generator to be adjusted on the pole. This also allows for something such as a PV panel, antenna, or another VAWT to be place on top of this with the wiring going down the shaft of the monople. The pole does not move.
Also, Thanks for the information I've seen posted. If I would have found this site sooner it would have saved me months of searching and using my imagination :)

Newbie VAWT | 19 comments (19 topical)

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by bzrqmy on Fri May 29, 2009 at 08:15:47 PM MST

For your first project, why not build something that is proven to work? At first, I had a ton of ideas and was sure that everyone on this site full of it. After 3-4 years, and having built the proven 10 footer, I still don't know crap. Having built the same turbine a lot of others have gives me something to compare to. Watching my turbine put out up to 35 amps at 24V gives me confidince that I am in the ballpark. I think I can do some tweaking to get a bit more power at lower speeds based on the discussions from this forum. I am more confident that maybe one day I would venture off the beaten track and build something unique.

I really know nothing about VAWT's except that they tend to turn slow. From my experience in axial flux machines, the power comes from speed. A turbine that is turning slowly is not making much power. This is of course for micro turbines. The bit boys appear to be turning slowly because of their massive size.

Good luck on whatever project you attempt.

Still learning after four years,

Pat

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by wdyasq on Sat May 30, 2009 at 05:52:06 AM MST

VolvpFarmer posted a challenge here:

www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/10/52711/090

Perhaps you should try something achievable by the masses before you become frustrated and upset over spending money betting on a duck in a rooster fight.

Ron
Adventure is just bad planning." -- Roald Amundsen

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by dbcollen on Sat May 30, 2009 at 12:23:19 PM MST

My duck regulary beats the crap out of my rooster, the rooster will come up and get ready to spur the duck, and the duck just reaches out and grabs a beak full of feathers. then the rooster can't spur him and also can't get away.

Not defending VAWTs, I generally think they are a waste of time and resources, just saying I would bet on a duck in a cockfight.

Dustin
Mad River Wind and Hydro
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by danwatchorn on Sat May 30, 2009 at 06:26:32 PM MST

Nice! Hopefully, I'll be collecting on that in a few months :) I'm very confident of the structural design. I'll be building and testing airflow for the housing, then blade design in the coming weeks. I'm having a hard time trying to visulize how exaclty to configure the coils.

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by valterra on Sun May 31, 2009 at 06:06:29 AM MST

I want to tell you, in the nicest way possible, that you're pretty much missing the point of the previous replies.

You're confident in the design, but have no idea what to do with the coils and magnets.

In other words, you will be very successful at creating a great piece of lawn art, but not a VAWT. A VAWT is an electrical generator / alternator. The most basic, functional part of the entire design is the ONLY part that you are struggling with. And you're trying to re-design THAT part from scratch.

Basically, you're like a hobbyist building a car with no working knowledge of engines. The previous posters are trying to tell you:

"Hey! Why not try to build a working engine, based upon other people's designs, before you sink all of your time and money into that fancy race car body!"

and your response was, "Cool! I've got the design of the body down pat."

I'm not trying to be critical. I've spent A WHOLE LOT of my own time and money chasing down various designs because I thought my ideas were better. But honestly, if you go with something FAIRLY mainstream, you will be HAPPY with your results, and you will WANT to do MORE of this stuff. You'll REALLY catch the bug.

The metaphorical car, above, is WORTHLESS without the engine. Please, for YOUR SAKE, start there! :-)

I wish you success in your projects!

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by electrondady1 on Sat May 30, 2009 at 06:54:18 AM MST

about 5.5 years for me on this site.
i like verticals too and wish you luck on your project.
if you want to understand how alternators work, this is the place.
but this forum is mostly about horizontal axis mills.
and they are a different animal than what a vertical mill requires.

the usual daunting factor on the windmill type your interested in is it's scale.
when people realize the magnitude of the devise required to produce the power they dream of, they often become discouraged.
sadly, it becomes much more expedient to build a little propeller type .

if however, you are determined,and can stand a bit of guff.
carry on.

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by danwatchorn on Sat May 30, 2009 at 06:38:39 PM MST

eh, I can take a lot. I'm pretty determined to build this. Any advice you can give me on the coils?... size, guage (thinking some bifilar) number of coils or number of windings per coil? I'm just really learning the basics of them right now as I work on the airflow design. Any references you can recommend?

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by TheCasualTraveler on Sat May 30, 2009 at 07:22:05 PM MST

If your really that determined, take it one step at a time.

How about a drawing of what you want to do with dimensions?

You are not ready to start winding coils.

When you have the blades built and working and know what kind of RPM's it can do then you may be ready to build an alternator to match.

Chances are you will give up before you build anything. If you are serious and build a set of blades you will get lots of help on building an alternator to match.
Andy
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by electrondady1 on Sun May 31, 2009 at 06:52:15 AM MST

it's quite alright for the mill and the alternator to be two separate entities.

build the vanes measure the torque and rpm,
then build the alternator to suit.

run the alternator off the mill with a belt so that
as your design evolves you can swap in new bits.

making electricity from the wind is not easy
if it was everyone would do it.

you mentioned you wanted the coils to sit on a six inch piece of pipe
i assume you will rotate the mags on the outside.

google search the board for single rotor radial alternators.

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by ghurd on Sun May 31, 2009 at 06:57:57 AM MST

First thing I thought was eddy currents in the pipe.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by hiker on Sun May 31, 2009 at 10:33:04 PM MST

you see that box up top to the right--google search the board...
works great--just enter - vawt-
lots of info....................

WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by hiker on Sun May 31, 2009 at 10:38:36 PM MST

try --search the board-

enter- vawt-
lots of info there also............

have fun................
WILD IN ALASKA
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by danwatchorn on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 06:44:56 AM MST

yes, the mags will rotate on the outside. Thanks for the belt suggestion.

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by danwatchorn on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 06:23:29 AM MST

That's exactly where I'm going with this, but how do I estimate anything with loadless RPMs? I'm just trying to find a close starting place without a total crap shoot.

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by electrondady1 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 07:01:33 AM MST

vertical mill guys don't have the advantage of someone like hugh piggot who spent 20 years examining every aspect of these air core alternators.
and the advantage of two world wars of research to gain insite into the behavior of different blade profiles.

just by eyeball , my savonius mills (20"dia )turn a little over 120.
unloaded.

i like a charging voltage(14 volts) at around 30 rpm.

with an axial flux mill you can set up a single rotor and spin it to test .
cover the rotor with paper or cardboard about 1/16"thick
you can now hold the test coil right on the surface and take readings as you spin at a specific speed.
i use a metronome .

there are so meny ways to build a vertical mill it's all,most impossible to give specific advise
if your keeping your design under your hat for now then you really need to understand what is going on inside the alt. and what you need to do to change things

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by ADMIN on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 07:52:11 AM MST

You can't -- loadless RPMs are a meaningless measurement.
You can always use a DeProny brake to measure the torque you have available from your VAWT blades. That will put you in the ballpark for starting to design an alternator. You will be quite disappointed and says things like "that can't be right, it's too low" but unfortunately it will be close to correct.

Double the speed of your blades, and you quadruple the effect they have on the wind. That's the reason that lift-based HAWTs are so ubiquitous.

ADMIN

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by TheCasualTraveler on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:54:18 AM MST

Although I defer to the ADMIN better knowledge, I don't think unloaded RPM's are meaningless. If the unloaded turbines RPM in an 7 MPH wind is 75, it wouldn't be much use designing for a cut in at 50. Looking at it from this viewpoint I only meant unloaded RPM's as a very basic starting point. I stated this from the standpoint of a newcomers likelihood of actually measuring torque.
Andy
[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by danwatchorn on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 06:48:28 AM MST

I have quite a few drawings, but no decent CAD program or anything on the computer.

[ Parent ]

Re: Newbie VAWT (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by electrondady1 on Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 07:30:30 PM MST

i for one am getting sick of computer generated images. here 's a sketch of an idea i had that might relate to your plans. at the time i was thinking about very long coils/poles as a way of minimising the percentage of unproductive end copper .

the coils needed to rest on a tubular stator that retained a bearing and axel

[ Parent ]

Newbie VAWT | 19 comments (19 topical)

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