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next newest newbie


By mdntdncr, Section Newbies
Posted on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 01:14:48 AM MST
alt energy first baby steps

Hello, folks . . .

  I did do some searches and didn't find an answer to my most immediate question,
so if I'm wrong, please feel free to point me to the right thread.

  I'm interested in tinkering, doing some experiments with end results in providing
electrical power to my house and grid.  However, due to time and money, I'll have to
start small(this will also help to keep within my learning curve).

  So, on to the question (or observation).  One of the first steps, it seems, that
most people take is to build a small wind turbine.  Typically, it's suggested that
you get a 12v motor out of a treadmill.  But I quite simply can't find one or
purchase one.  Everything I find is 120vdc.  To be honest, I'd rather work with that
since I'd like my end result to be a higher voltage for easier copper usage.
  So it seems I'm left with the option of starting my experiments with a 120vdc
treadmill motor, but then how do I find an inverter or converter to change it to AC?
The only thing I've been able to find is around 6 grand.  Additionally, how do you something to sync up to the grid?  I've found several inverters which will convert 12/24v and auto sync to the grid.  Does anyone know of a reasonable solution to
convert/sync 120vdc or regulate/sync 120v ac?
  Thank you and I hope I didn't cause any grimaces out there.

  -- mdntdncr

next newest newbie | 45 comments (45 topical)

Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by spinningmagnets on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:00:26 PM MST

Don't be embarrassed to ask anything, especially in the newbies section.

There are some misconceptions about putting power back into the grid. First, to build a grid-tied system, you may be restricted to using only certain components from a list thats approved by the county/state electrician.

"Net metering" is when the utility pays you for the electricity that you have put back into the grid. I think you can only get paid each month up to the amount that you have used, so that you can't make a profit. The best you can do is break even.

The laws vary from place to place and they also change each year, so check with your local utility to see whats possible for you.

Start with something small and cheap while you're learning. Here's a great starter project:

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/assemblyMini1.asp



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:17:42 PM MST

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'll be taking the grid-tie slowly.  I already have
solutions for grid-tie on 12/24vdc that 'by-pass' my state's regulations since:

(1)  I'll be tying in on the load side, not the meter side and
(2)  the electricity produced will be small and for experimental purposes.

  The problem is that I can only find 120v production for what I'm looking at
and I don't yet have a solution for that voltage.  I'm not quite ready to
build my own PM generator yet.

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by TomW on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:17:12 PM MST

mdntdncr;

While treadmills may plug into the wall 120 VAC outlet many have motors that run on DC.

At least all the ones I have seen / messed with. That is not very many, however.

Just a bit of info that may not be obvious to someone new to it.

Welcome to the board.

Tom

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it




Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 08:23:26 PM MST

Right . . I've found they run on DC, not AC, but all the ones I've found
or tried to buy run on 120V DC.  The voltage is not stepped down to 12/24V;
it's simply converted from AC to DC.  
  Using a 120V DC motor would be beneficial.  Keep the same voltage, invert to
AC and sync instead of stepping back up from 12/24.  But there doesn't seem to be
any solutions for that.  The ones I've found are all set up for a
12/24 battery storage bank.  Convert it down and then step it back up?
I can just hear all the rest of the readers laughing their heads off already :S

<grin>
--mdntdncr

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by TomW on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:01:02 PM MST

Not to discourage you, but...

You seem to be laboring under some false assumptions / ideas.

A direct grid tie wind turbine designed and built from the ground up would be a daunting task for a crew of professionals.

I don't have the energy to go into much detail but there are others who may tackle enlightening you. Perhaps I misunderstand your plan?

Might want to just do some reading in the "controls" section. This stuff is not rocket science but it is somewhat involved with subtle gotchas.

"Bypassing State laws" is not something I am comfortable being an accessory to. Rules can really suck, but they are in place for usually sound reasons.

Good Luck with it.

Tom

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it


[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:10:17 PM MST

Thanks . . . I'll check it out.

  I'm not wanting to build something that is a direct grid-tie.  I just want
to find a solution so I can focus my energies on producing the mechanical energy
that runs the motor, etc.

I put 'by-pass state laws' in single quotes to signify that it's just a phrasing.
I'm not talking about something illegal nor something that's unsafe.  I was
simply stating that I already have a solution (purchasable UL rated)for most
12/24vdc setups that does not necessitate the regulatory aspects of the prevalent
grid-tie systems that are traditionally sold.  
  Ironically, I just don't have a motor that will let me do it.
I'd prefer a simpler solution and solve this part later.

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by imsmooth on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 06:24:19 PM MST

I just built a grid-tied wind turbine.

http://www.mindchallenger.com/axial1.html

This will cost a few dollars.  I already had net metering with my 12kw solar array.  I purchased a UL approved wind inverter and routed it through a subpanel with a 20A/two-pole breaker.

I don't expect a break-even for a long time.  I did it to see if I could.  I learned a lot of disciplines along the way.  Definitely a great project.
Jonathan
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by mdntdncr on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 06:31:34 PM MST

ahhh . . .  very interesting.  What did you happen to buy?
I tried the link, by the way, but it came up with a 404 not found error.

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#24)
by mdntdncr on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 04:13:31 AM MST

Imsmooth,
  I did manage to get to the site and I enjoyed watching your project.  Thank you.

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#44)
by Onthero on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 06:01:45 AM MST

Your link is offline, could you post the correct/new one ?!
Thx !

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#45)
by mdntdncr on Fri Jul 10, 2009 at 02:07:09 AM MST

I found it by simply going here and then looking at the options.

http://www.mindchallenger.com/wind/

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by tlaycock on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 09:55:40 AM MST

The motor does not change the voltage from 120volts AC to 120 volts DC. The electronics in the motor control board does that.

The motor needs 120 volts DC to spin at its rated RPM.So if the motor is on a bench and you connect a volt meter to the two leads coming out of the motor then spin the motor at its rated RPM it will read 120 volts DC plus or minus a couple volts. Divide the 120 volts by ten and you get 12 volts, so then divide the rated speed by ten and this is how fast you will need to spin the motor to get 12 volts DC.

Does this help ?



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by mdntdncr on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 04:22:44 PM MST

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!
  That's fantastic.   I most definitely did not know that.
thank you so much.

-- mdntdncr

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by divemaster1963 on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 07:54:39 PM MST

hey newbie. welcome aboard. I"m still learning myself. but the basic thing to do would be to do as what was stated before for 12volt output. I have tried treadmill motors to no avail. I have about 15 of them. I would suggest you posilble look for a ecm motor from a high sere ac unit. they are the best to start with. the best way to get to your outcome is to start really really small. charge to a 12 volt battery bank them use controller to get to 120 ac. I don't know much about the converters you are talking about. but not sure if they would be legal here where I am. Woofhound and Ghurd are the masters that I have been getting most of my Knowledge from and the other masters that are to many to name. check out the diaries of the people who post the most answers to questions. that should point you in the best direction.

good luck and good wind

Divemaster1963


God Protect Them All!
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by mdntdncr on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 08:26:53 PM MST

Thanks . .
  I'm trying to start small, but for me small means using simple means.  
Charging a battery bank is something I'm currently trying to avoid since
(1)  I already know how that works and (2) It's a more complicated setup.
By the way . . where is 'here'?
Also . .  am I to take it that you are a fellow Divemaster?

--MD

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by ghurd on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:04:02 PM MST

Charging a battery is more complicated to setup than a grid tied system?

There is a reason the cheapest one you found is $6000, and it is not because it is simple.

"I was simply stating that I already have a solution (purchasable UL rated)for most
12/24vdc setups that does not necessitate the regulatory aspects of the prevalent
grid-tie systems that are traditionally sold."

What do you have in mind?  Exactly.

I can not decide if you are being intentionally vague, or do not know the terms and grasp the overall concepts.
I have an uneasy feeling about the outcome either way.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by mdntdncr on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:03:48 PM MST

Hahahahaha . . . .  I can understand the uneasiness.

  I probably should have said tedious instead of complicated.
It's complicated to me because I'd have to have a place to set up the batteries,
maintain them, etc etc . .  While I know how to do this, I'm not really interested
in it right now because I won't learn anything from it and will have to
set aside a safe place for it.  Having a bunch of batteries sitting around
an overcrowded area does not strike me as safe.
  I grasp the overall concepts . . I do not have a grasp of the finer points.
A simpler solution is a term that's based on my perspective as an enduser, not
as a builder.  Many of the readers are building control solutions, etc.  
This is not an area I'm wanting to delve into right now.  I'm new.
I'm more interested in exploring the mechanical production side.  I was
hoping to avoid setting up some battery storage system because I don't need
it for what I want to do.
  There are some solutions out there for 12/24v that are simply plug&play.
They are autosynchronous, non-battery, and do not require major electrical connections.
Although they offer no real power and thus no great savings, they are from
an enduser's perspective 'simple'.
  Although I've done some searches, I just haven't found a similar product for
higher voltage which happened to be the motors I'd found.  Someone else shed light
on that for me, so now I have some room for play.
  As a licensed electrician, I have plenty of respect and experience for dealing with
electricity, just not a lot of experience in motors.  I'm not too interested in delving into the motors and motor controls yet.  I only want something small so that I can delve into the mechanical aspects of creating kinetic energy to tie to the motor.
Later on, after I have more time, money, and shop room, then I'll look into
motors.  But many of you guys who are much smarter than me are working on those :D


[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by ghurd on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:45:06 PM MST

(purchasable UL rated) solutions out there for 12/24v that are simply plug&play.

What do you have in mind?  

Exactly.
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by mdntdncr on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 04:57:34 AM MST

To be honest, I don't remember.  I hit several search engines under grid-tie inverter (I think)and found they were available and just dropped it after that.  I didn't plan on purchasing anything until I'm ready to start.  Once I solve the rest of the problem, then I'll buy it.  I did find that one company was planning on making a 1000 watt device, but they didn't seem like they were that far along.  The rest were all 200 or 250 watts.  But if I didn't have a way to produce 12v, then it was useless for me to spend the money on it.  Additionally, I thought I'd hold out until I was closer and maybe the 1000 watt device will have passed it's UL rating.
  Since I was looking at motors that were 120v, then I needed to know if there was a
120v solution.  I couldn't find one, so I thought I'd ask those with more experience.  But so far, it seems that there is no solution.  Other than hooking up 10 batteries as a storage bank.  ugh .. .
  I do find it odd that there isn't an economical one.  It leaves me wondering if it's just simply unfeasible or the market hasn't gotten there yet.  I'm assuming that the market was driven by PV systems and not any mechanically driven production.  So, then, what would happen if we designed economical mechanically driven devices that were 120v?  Would a market develop?
  I've seen a few devices where someone hacked an exercycle that plugged straight into the wall.  But they were trying to sell their product and I didn't learn how they did it.  I'm obviously not an electronics or electrical engineer and I don't know how to do it myself other than the solution mentioned above.  A company in Japan has recently designed (and I believe slated for production soon) one that can be sold to exercise gyms (Bally's, 24hr fitness, etc) where the 'consumer' would actually be contributing to the cost savings as they did their workout.  Do you think the gym would actually tell them this?  I do find that thought amusing.

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#18)
by divemaster1963 on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:38:39 PM MST

 Middle Ga. .actually I was and instrutor For IDEA. have stopped teaching fire and police on underwater rescue and recovery. Insurance cost way out of control. Now just use dm cert to have fun with fewer resrictions. as woofhound said it's not the cost savings we look for but the love of learning or nessesty. Mine is for my work shop located 800 to 1200 feet away from house on other side of creek. power company wants 5000 to just run power to shop plus additional 120 per month over usage.


God Protect Them All!
[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by wooferhound on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:20:40 PM MST

What I am wondering is Why are you wanting to do this, I can tell you some really good reasons...
  • Living remotely and don't have the grid
  • Need good backup power for when the grid goes down
  • It's a fun functional hobby
There is also a great reason not to do this too...
- Need to save money on your electric bill

It's a hard lesson to learn at first, it costs more to make your own power than to buy it from the grid and in 90 percent of cases you will see that there is not really a payback time since making usable electricity costs twice as much or more than buying it from a mass producer.

I am in the Hobby/Backup catagory.
W o o f -={(



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#19)
by mdntdncr on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:28:31 PM MST

you guys are funny!

  I'd have to say I'm more in the learning category as Diver put it.  I completely understand the idea that you can't save money doing it.  But I would like to keep looking at what it would take to change that.  I don't have the knowledge you guys have with the motors and controls yet, but I do have ideas about power production.  More than likely they're crappy ideas, but still... I'd like to opportunity to find out.  But instead of simply redoing experiments that others have done over and over, I prefer to find out what's been tried and then think about what I might change to better that.  Some of it I want to do as a "let's see if . . ." kind of thing.  But others might be more feasible.  Regardless, it's still experimental however you look at it.  I just want to spend my time and ideas on harnessing the power right now and hope that someone else will eventually partner up with me to convert it.
  However, I'm still quite happy to learn about it without the need to experiment.
For example, I know how a rectifier works, but how does an inverter actually work?
If you have an induction motor, how is that you can put a preliminary charge to it and then turn it to produce?  Stuff like that which is simple to you guys I still haven't been able to study.  Eventually I'll build one of Hugh's PMM's, but right now, I don't really need to.  Those are things I'll experiment with later.  
  Besides, with the wife in school, a li'l one about to crawl in a house where the kitchen cabinets still aren't finished while I'm working out of town;  well . . I have to choose carefully which components of this movement I can spend my time working with.  I'd rather not solve a problem that's already been solved, eh?  <grin>

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#20)
by spinningmagnets on Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 10:47:10 PM MST

"...If you have an induction motor, how is that you can put a preliminary charge to it and then turn it to produce?.."

If you Google "induction motor conversion" and similar search terms, you will see many examples.You mention you are familiar with diodes, so you probably understand capacitors can hold a small charge.

There is a formula located several places around the web that helps you calculate the proper value of capacitor to use that will hold a small charge to help excite the armature on start-up. Here's one site of many:

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/ainductge.html

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#25)
by mdntdncr on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 07:31:31 PM MST

okay . . . I was thinking about this induction today.  I know that a converted induction can only power another induction motor that's 1/6(?) the power of the one you're running.  So what happens when you run that power into/through the battery bank?  Will it be easy to store that energy in the bank and then whatever other induction motor you have on your system will pull from the bank?  or are you simply losing 5/6 of the energy in your conversion than you are mistakenly thinking you should have.

  wow . . . that sounded convoluted . . :S

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#26)
by spinningmagnets on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 09:59:57 PM MST

I havent built an induction conversion yet, but they have been done often enough its well-known to work. I "think" as a generator they must be run at around 10% more RPM's than they were run when used as a motor.

Its true some of the field output is drawn off to power the spinning armature coils when using it as a gen. I suppose if permanent magnets were installed on the armature that were "the exact same strength as the armature coils", then...the field output would be higher.

The way they are worthwhile is when you get a used one cheap at an auction or a salvage yard. Removing the armature coils and using permanent magnets on the armature is called a Zubbly conversion.

Named after a man from here who showed how to get the most out of them. Sadly he has passed away. You can find the Zubbly conversions with pics by using the "Google search the board" button on the top right of this page.

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#22)
by wooferhound on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 11:26:33 PM MST

I am pretty good at very many different crafts, because of this I have built almost all of my system from scratch. In fact I built everything I have from components except the solar panels themselves. I have also built a 200w wind genny but it's not flying yet. This is why I might see payback in 10 years because I built everything from inexpensive parts. Of course I already had the skills to do this from past life experiences.

Here is my Solar Power System . . .
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/1/7/222041/6802
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/3/18/232910/066

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#23)
by mdntdncr on Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 04:11:23 AM MST

Thanks, guys!
  Spinning and Lov2weld, I'm already checking out your recommendations.  I much prefer to learn from what others have done first.
  Woof, that's why I hope to make it feasible to save money.  Obviously, you can't make money on it, but . . if you can truly be generating enough power, you can increase the lifestyle a bit and not have to be constantly watching the thermometer, right?  Also, if there's enough power, then you could move the opposite direction from what we've typically done and switch back to electric from natural gas.
  To be honest, though; if the CapNTrade passes, I suspect saving money will be a whole lot more feasible than we thought.

  I have plans to build my generating aspects myself and eventually, the electrical generation as well.  I doubt that I will ever build a synchronized inverter, though (much as I would love to, I simply don't have enough knowledge for that).
  Another reason I want to start small and not do the battery bank and all is because I need to remodel the house.  When I do, I'll completely gut the electrical, redesign the power flow, and upgrade everything.  At that point, I'll set up all my connections in preparation for an integrated system.
  I plan to build another house, and I'd like to learn which things I want to do before then so I can design them into the architecture plans.

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#27)
by Madscientist267 on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:02:35 AM MST

As I read through this thread, I began to wonder if you were seeing the whole picture, but this last post at least leans in the right direction. A big mistake (that many make, myself [almost] included) would be to just jump in without understanding what you're up against.

It all sounds simple enough; produce it, store it, sell it, buy it back, and use it. Unfortunately, as you will find out if you do all the right experiments and ask the right questions, it is a lot more complex than it sounds.

There's a reason its not cheap to set up and run an RE system - It's a lot of hard work; time, research, and effort. All of that on top of the fact that some of the equipment involved can have hefty price tags hanging from them too. It can be done obviously, but you'll waste a lot of time, energy, and money if you don't have it all figured out before you shell out the cash.

Being a newbie, forget the grid tie for now. That is probably the most headache intensive aspect. As several have pointed out, there are certain components of a grid tie system that have to be very specific (complying with code, etc) and therefore have a tendency to be expensive. Add that to the fact that the returns on such an investment are minimal, and it's not really worth it for the average joe.

Start small; I did mock up designs to understand what all is involved. When I realized just how much was going to have to happen, my end plans didn't look anything like what I had in my head when I jumped in. The result? I am still tweaking the ideas, collecting data, and continuously adjusting the design before I go full throttle with the idea. That's a year and a half after I started seriously contemplating RE...

As for batteries being 'dangerous', well, yes they are. But it's like anything else; you must have a healthy respect for their potential. We didn't get where we are by playing it 'safe' all the way... Understanding what the dangers are and making provision to deal with them is the key. Battery systems are the ideal way right now, mainly because they are simpler and cheaper (for the most part) than the alternatives (grid tie, etc). They come with their own set of issues, but they are easily resolved by a tinkerer, and don't involve things like code to the degree that tying in with your power company does.

Hopefully this helps a bit; I don't want to discourage you, but it sucks worse to see someone make expensive mistakes because they didn't know the pitfalls...

Steve


[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#28)
by mdntdncr on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 12:50:38 PM MST

  "but you'll waste a lot of time, energy, and money if you don't have it all figured out before you shell out the cash."

 Exactly!!! (big smile)  but dang it, I sure wish I knew how you made 'before' bold.  That's another geek tweak I'm sorely lacking in.  It's interesting how an intelligent person can feel so moronic.     . .. good thing I'm not intelligent, huh?

 "The result? I am still tweaking the ideas, collecting data, and continuously adjusting the design . . . . . a year and a half after I started seriously contemplating RE..."

  That's the same thing here; although I'm not nearly as far along as you.  Also, as I wait, new products become available(as I've mentioned above).

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#29)
by Madscientist267 on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:26:33 PM MST

The bold part is easy, there's a couple of ways to do it, but the easy one is to put * on either side of what you want to make bold. The list of HTML control codes is down below the preview and post buttons at the bottom of the editing window - its a bit cryptic however in the sense that it assumes you know some HTML conventions...

The alternative for * is < STRONG > and < /STRONG >, only without the spaces after and before the greater/less symbols. In this case, "and" would be in bold, everything else normal.

For tweaking, yes, it continuously changes. There's a lot to it, and many different ways of doing something. The biggest trick is to find what will work for you, at the lowest cost.

This comes down to more or less the following:

A - Minimizing your energy requirements. This is an absolute must if you plan to keep the bank happy, yet overlooked rather often by beginners. Don't try to size a system up to your current usage. It's much cheaper to get rid of loads that you don't really need, and find less 'expensive' ways of doing what you must do (ie fluorescent rather than incandescent, etc). This can be a very notable teaching tool for you while you're still completely grid reliant - If you treat the grid as if you have to produce everything you use, you'll notice a big difference in your bill until you go independent! :)

B - Do your homework. Knowing the insolation stats (for solar) or having wind data for your area (for a mill) is crucial to a successful system. Also, ask questions, post findings, and get help from people who have been there. There are quite a few people on this board that definitely know their stuff. Read around, it's easy enough to determine who they are.

C - Know your budget. This is one of the harder ones. For me, it manifests as buying cheap crap that turns out being unreliable, costing me more in the end. If you can't afford to do it right, don't do it until you can.

D - For the best results, things need to be matched. Having a few thousand amp hour battery bank that can run your house for a week sounds great, until you understand the implications of not having enough money left over for anything more than a 25 watt solar panel to charge it with. There are several components in a typical system to keep in mind with this. Most of us start small, adding to the entire system evenly until there is no longer a need to do so. (Side question; is there a such thing? LOL) More load means you need more input, so more solar panels. But then where do you store the extra juice? Upgrade the battery. Then the inverter overheats. Gotta get a bigger one. But now you have all this extra juice... can do more load! And on and on and on :)

E - Beware the BS schemes all over the internet. "Green" is such a buzzword these days that everyone wants to cash in on it. If you stick with the DIY approach (like on here), you'll be fine. In fact, commercial 'plugging' is frowned upon here - a good sign that it's copesetic.

That should get you good and started; but while we're on the subject, I just want to reinforce the idea that saving money is the #1 reason you shouldn't do RE. While it's possible to eventually recover the costs, it takes a long, long time.

Most of us do it for fun, education, to 'stick it to the man', or because there is no other way to get the juice. The DIY approach leans out the wallet requirements a bit, but in no way is money the primary driving force around here.

Steve

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#32)
by mdntdncr on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:48:09 PM MST

I don't know if I mentioned it here or not, but part of the reason for my experiments is for the future when I build a large house out in a more rural area.  I want to learn now and integrate the ideas that are proven into the house design.  When I do, I obviously, will be spending the money, eh?  But I intend the house to be built to last a long time and the same for its components.

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#34)
by wooferhound on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 11:08:29 PM MST

I think the biggest lesson to learn is Conservation. If you can reduce your electrical useage to be half of what you are using now, then you will only need a Wind/Solar system to be half as big as you were planning in the beginning.

Use Fluorescent lighting not incandescent
Microwave oven instead of Conventional oven
Don't set the house thermostat to 70 Degrees (21c) and leave it
   set it higher in the summer and lower in the winter
Turn off stuff when it is unused
Hand wash dishes, don't use a dishwasher
Use solar thermal water and house heating

You get the idea . . .
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#35)
by DamonHD on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 12:16:36 AM MST

Hi,

Just on the dishwasher point...

If you run a modern dishwasher full, and use the lowest intensity setting for your load that will do the job, there is evidence that a dishwasher will use less water and energy and wash and rinse your dishes and pans better than doing it by hand.

In particular I have no desire to eat off plates still with a smear of detergent that tastes bad and potentially acts as an endocrine disruptor (man boobs and cancer anyone?).

Rgds

Damon
"Once you have licked the windows of freedom your tongue gets stuck."
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#36)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 05:53:23 AM MST

Actually, it is true.  Handwashing dishes uses more energy and water.  Of course, if your water is solar heated then you're reducing some of that energy, so maybe you're breaking even more and you simply lose time.
Additionally, I dislike microwaves because they destroy the nutritional value of the foods.  It will often depend on which foods.  Meats are mostly fine, but that's about it.

  I understand conservation and have used it a good part of my life.  But, even conserving, there are many cases when prices will go up and what we consider unfeasible will quickly become feasible.  This last year, when oil rose quickly, while the price of oil only doubled, my electric bill almost quadrupled.
  Additionally, sometimes you can only conserve so much.  It's hot.  And humid.  At some point, enough is enough and that air conditioner has to come on.  Since we've been married, my wife and I have tried to keep the thermostat almost to the extremes.  either wear more clothes or shed clothes.  Well, in the summer you can only shed so much before your neighbors call the cops.  But most importantly, we have a new addition.  We can't swing to extremes now.  We have to look at what the wisest course is for the safety of the infant.  
  Granted . . the situation is temporary, but events can conspire to run those prices up where it's no longer hands down cheapest to run off the grid.  Studying; preparing ahead of time means that while you're having fun, you're also laying the groundwork for the future.
  It's why, like in a post above, I'm thinking, strategizing, learning, and ditching things as I go, constantly modifying my ideas as I find out what others have done.  Of course, with everything else that's going on, I just can't afford to do anything major either <wink>.

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#37)
by DamonHD on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 08:07:28 AM MST

I'm not convinced that microwaves are worse than any other method of cooking for destroying nutrients (or indeed making others available).

And you should try it on broccoli and fish; both benefit from fast cooking to avoid turning to mush!  B^>

Rgds

Damon
"Once you have licked the windows of freedom your tongue gets stuck."
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#38)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 08:24:20 AM MST

Well . ..  I'm convinced.  There's enough evidence out there to support it.
So I don't use it.  But the statement was to use it instead of an electric oven.
Since I don't use an electric oven, this point becomes somewhat moot for me.
All my cooking is currently done with gas, with the exception of a slow-cooker which can be replaced with a solar oven (eventually) but still uses less electric than a conventional electric oven.
  However, that does come back to the same point.  If, in fact, enough electricity can be produced from an independent source, would it be feasible to change to electric when gas shoots up?

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#39)
by ghurd on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 09:28:21 AM MST

Energy prices are all related.
Gas went up.  Which made coal go up.  Which made fire wood go up (at least locally).

The grid tie, start small, save money thing is still pretty poor.
Crude is more stable now and may have reached a plateau for a while.
Say the grid is 20 cents / KWH.
That 200W illegal inverter is ~$350.  About $500(?) for a 200W peak windmill and tower. $150 for stray parts to keep the numbers even.
Be really lucky to maintain an average of 40W, and I mean really lucky.

That puts a 0 maintenance pay back at 14 years 3 months.  That's the break even point.
If the original $1000 was invested at 5% compounded annually for the same time, it would be worth a hair over $2000.

It works out much better on a larger scale.  Bigger is cheaper.

You do not seem overly fixed to the wind.  If you are thinking hydro, it works out a lot better.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#40)
by Madscientist267 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 10:49:49 AM MST

G-

Youre forgetting though that this applies more to someone who gets it all. For someone starting out, big is begging for an expensive mistake with not much to show for it but a bunch of parts. Sure, you'll spend some extra money going small first, but there's no price on the knowledge gained by doing so ;)

I suppose every situation is unique...

Steve

[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#41)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 11:11:01 AM MST

G & Steve are both correct in how this pertains to me.  Small only allows me to experiment and to decide how a larger setup might benefit me or harm me.
  ROI is minimal for both large and small startups if you're only experimenting to learn.  If, however, one is serious about an economic solution, then going for a large setup without adequate research or knowledge is self-composting your money.
  There are other rewards as well.  I'm a proponent for open source, so if (and we're all agreeing that this is a big if) I were to decide on an economic solution, then I can post it and anyone who wants can benefit.  Trying to make money off of it is, in my opinion, a no-win.  Too many people out there are trying to sell half-brained ideas because they want to 'cash in'.
  G is also correct that I'm not dedicated to wind.  Where I live makes it a rather difficult choice.  Unless I can come up with something very efficient, my experiments with wind will be more of a novelty.  
  This is why I'm looking for a 'simple' solution for the electric and tie.  Because others are working on these while I hope to be working on power production.
  Hope is a big word, though.  My resources are fully utilized right now and I have other projects that I'm currently working on or designing. . . including some for work where I hope to increase my revenue or my value to the company.  That, plus a newborn, a wife in school and pursuing a license, a house that I'm having to recondition as I go without disturbing either baby or mom, and losing 3+ hours a day in drive time means that I'll be doing research first.

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#42)
by ghurd on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 11:15:41 AM MST

Certainly 100% correct.

I intended to point out how the grid tie idea should be the first to go, especially for  micro scale.  The inverter's limits holds the system back, and a 400W system only costs a hair more than a 200W system.

I should mention more about that 200W grid tied inverter, and how much of the information about it from retailers is incorrect.  The recommendations about its use show the retailers never actually used one.
It appears well designed from an end user standpoint, except for not being UL approved, and crappy instructions resulting in crappy performance.
G-

Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#43)
by mdntdncr on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 08:49:27 PM MST

you know . . I think this reply is only going to be two words wide now, huh?
ugh . .
I came back to read your reply again and realized I didn't catch something.
What did you mean by 400 only costs a little more than 200?
Is there a 400 watt synchronous grid-tie I'm not aware of?


[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#33)
by mdntdncr on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:49:25 PM MST

I did it . . . I did it . . . .
oh . . . this post is going to be edited out, isn't it? :P

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#30)
by ghurd on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:31:58 PM MST

The 200W one has been available for a long time, it is just illegal to use it.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/1/28/234827/200
They have been promising the UL listed 1000W version for a long time too.

Don't hold your breath.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#31)
by mdntdncr on Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 08:45:10 PM MST

thanks . . good to know. . .

[ Parent ]


Re: next newest newbie (3.00 / 0) (#21)
by luv2weld on Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:10:26 AM MST

If you are serious about learning------here are a few
links to help you.

Studying Electronics----http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/study.htm

Electronic circuits-----http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/index.asp

Glossary of Electrical Engineering Terms---http://www.maxim-ic.com/glossary/

There are a lot more.

Ralph

"The best way to kill time is to work it to death!!"



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