Go to Otherpower.com Home Page Go to Forcefield Shopping Cart Go to Wondermagnet.com Home Page
Front Page - [Homebrewed Electricity-- (wind) (solar) (hydro) (steam) (controls) (storage) (mechanical)] - Classifieds - Site News
Everything - Newbies - [Remote Living-- (housing) (heat) (light) (water)] - Reviews - Diaries - Our Products
MREA small wind conference and energy fair


By DanB, Section Homebrewed Electricity
Posted on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 04:23:09 PM MST
Lots of fun in Wisconsin

A couple weeks ago DanF, my daughter Maya, and myself took off for the MREA small wind conference and energy fair in Stevens Point/Custer Wisconsin.  I went last year with my daughter, it was great fun and very interesting.  We took my old '66 Volvo wagon... it worked pretty well, a fairly rough/hot ride but we kept it down to about 600 miles per day so it wasn't too bad.

The first night we stayed at a motel in Adair Iowa, about 100 yards away from a nice 250kW (I think) roughly 80' diameter Vestas wind turbine.  This is a privately owned machine that runs a factory there ~ you can read all about it in Paul Gipes book 'Wind Power from Home Farm and Business'.  If I recall last year, this was about the only machine around there ~ now there are gobs of big 2+ megaWatt Clipper wind turbines all around it.

After waking up there, we drove another 300 miles or so to visit TomW and his wife, where we enjoyed their hospitality and worked a bit on one of his wind turbines.  Thanks Tom!!!

The next day we made it to Stevens Point Wisconsin and checked into a Holiday Inn for the Small Wind conference.  This conference is an interesting one - last year it seemed there were about 200 folks there, this year it was pushing 300.  Most of the attendees are either manufacturers or installers.   It takes place in a conference room over the course of two days and we get to hear lots about manufacturers updates - problems with various machines - the facts about roof top machines and VAWTS and quite a lot about some of the new rules and regulations happening out there.  Mick Sagrillo gave a very interesting talk about some urban installations of roof top machines including pacwind, Aerotecture and some other HAWT's.  Soe of these systems are quite expensive and the energy production numbers are out - lots of them seem to be producing energy in the $20 - $50/kWh range with 'payback' periods in the thousands of years!!!  Amazing how folks will waste resources without doing their homework first.. it's especially unfortunate when these resources are tax payer dollars.  Lots of good stuff going on in small wind, and some scary stuff.  I get concerned when some of the bigger manufacturers (1 in particular) that are selling gobs of machines to fairly untrained installers with very short towers pushing for every machine to be UL listed if it's going to be 'allowed' to be installed.  Oddly - at this time there is only 1 small wind turbine that is UL listed so far as I know.  In the future, if some folks have their way, code will say that any wind turbine must be UL listed.  This could apply only to grid tie installations, or it could apply to all installations we shall see!  In any case it will be pretty inconvenient for lots of us folk and lots of other small manufacturers.  More on this later hopefully!  So some of the conference was frustrating to me but most of it was fun and we got to see lots of good folks that we only see once a year including boB, Logan from Chinook wind power, the Bergey guys (I really enjoy them and their wind turbines), lots of folks who've taken our workshops .. it's two days of total immersion in small wind and lots of fun.  After the first day we went to the 'Bergey Barbeque'  - lots of fun, free food/beer and a good honky tonk band.  After the 2nd day there was a reception at the holiday in, again, free food and beer and good company.

The fair started on Friday.  We shared a booth with our friend Jason (Prolific Energy) right next door to the Bergey booth.  I have to give lots of credit to Bergey this year.  They've improved output on their Excel wind turbine by about 30% with an improved alternator and inverter.  They have also lowered the price of the machine, and changed from a 5 year, to a 10 year warranty.  Neat simple wind turbine ~ it's been manufactured now for almost 30 years with a pretty good track record.

Some of the fair.  DanF and I gave two small workshops there.  One (3 hours long) folks paid to attend (We didnt realize that till we got there) and filled up with about 70 folks.   The other one was free, 1 hour long and terribly crowded ~ there must've been at least 150 folks there.  I got a quick show of hands as to what folks had in mind...  about 30% want a VAWT.  Most of them want it on their roof.  More than 30% of folks had either heard of, or purchased the 'Earth4energy' ebook which is frustrating in my opinion.  Unfortunately for most folks, half our talk is about 'reality' and telling folks all the stuff they dont want to hear about small wind energy.  Hopefully we inspired some and saved others from wasting their time and money.  There is a great need for education about small wind energy these days ~ most of what's on the internet and most of what folks see on the news is very misleading lately.

This fair lasts 3 days, and brings in about 30,000 people from all over the world.

Steve W from Bergey ~ we had lots of fun with him, their engineer ToddH, and Scott, their new Sales rep.

We had a little 7' machine to display and sold some books in between our workshops.

Pictured above is a 10kW Hummingbird wind turbine manufactured in Mexico.  It looked to be quite well built and  very robust.

Neat ice cream maker!

This fellow rebuilds the old water pumpers.  He had some neat displays there - really elegant / practical old machines.  I doubt this 100+ year old technology has been improved upon.

ARE (Abundant Renewable Energy) displayed their turbines there.  Very nice, efficient and robust machines.  The small one is the 110 (12' diameter) and the larger one is the big 23' (I think) 10kW 442.  These are very much like the African Windpower machine, designed by Hugh Piggott.

There's the sign post!  Lots of vendors, lots of education (12 big tents that each hold 100 people for workshops), excellent food ~ and great music all day every day.  This is a neat fair well worth traveling a ways for in my opinion.

There was a 'car show' - of course lots of diesels converted to vegi-oil, I liked the electric tractor.

An MGBGT converted to electric.  Hopefully Lucas didn't design this setup....

A listeroid diesel running on vegi oil of course!

I'm not sure, but I think MREA has about 40 (maybe twice that) acres for the fair and the educational facility - pretty much in a very rural farming area.  The facility is mostly powered by this 20kW Jacobs wind turbine, a smaller 2kW Jake, and quite a lot of PV solar.  It's a beautiful place.  About 1 mile from that they have another 40 acres for camping with a shuttle that runs back and fourth every 15 min.

Pictured above is the main MREA building and the smaller Jake.  Again, loads of fun - neat fair, great friends, it's all extremely well organized.  Anyone whos not gone to this event yet should consider it.  Check out their website!  themrea.org

MREA small wind conference and energy fair | 8 comments (8 topical)

Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Beaufort on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 07:36:03 PM MST

Great report and pictures, looks like a lot of fun.  I agree with your statement about the latest push for wind power and how tax dollars are being wasted on poorly-engineered projects.  That kind of stuff is going to give everything a bad name going forward.  We need to learn from the UK and the whole Windsave fiasco to see that qualified people have to be involved with site evaluations and a realistic workup of cost vs. output.  

The UL aspect of the game is also something that will need to be debated before becoming a directive.  I spoke to some of their folks at Windpower 2009 in Chicago and they are treating the small wind turbine business like any other electrical device that can cause harm to people.  Some may see that as a benefit to lay-people and the manufacturers may see that as a huge investment with UL just to have the chance to sell products.  Either way the result needs to be something that will drive the industry forward and inspire innovation.

Deep respect to the trip with the '66 Volvo.
Beaufort



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by DanB on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 07:48:49 PM MST

My concern is perhaps somebody is trying to solve problems that dont exist.. or - perhaps the driving force behind this UL listing stuff is by manufacturers.  So far as I know, currently... the only rules regarding grid tie at the moment say that the inverter must be UL listed.  At this time, so far as I know the only UL listed wind turbine is the Southwest Windpower Skystream which has the inverter built in.  That same machine also has no passive control system ~ certain electronic failures can result in a runaway turbine that can't even furl.  So I have to wonder...

I wonder if the new 6' diameter roof top wind turbine built by Honeywell, soon to be sold at Ace hardware will be UL listed and 'allowed'!  That is one of the scams to com along yet in my opinion (much like the windsave stuff in the UK)- I am amazed that two such large companies are getting involved with such silly stuff.

[ Parent ]



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by dnix71 on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 08:47:37 PM MST

I don't know what rules for grid tie wind will become, but it won't be simple. You can't just turn off the wind if you don't need the power.

People in forums like this seem to despise AirX's because of their noisy blades, but they are inherently safe for noobs. Low voltage, carbon fiber blades, self braking, etc.

Except for rural areas, home grid tie wind probably isn't a good idea.

I would like to see more Vawt's for residential use. High towers for Hawt's and climbing them to service electronics is inherently unsafe.



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by DanB on Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 09:11:44 PM MST

The Air series has their place for sure, trouble is they are just tiny and fairly noisy and most folks who buy them are for some reason expecting a lot more energy than they could ever hope for from such a tiny machine.  They really serve no purpose for most folks ~ they make very little energy.

I would like to see folks getting it through their heads that VAWTS are not that suitable for residential use  - wind energy simply doesn't work if you don't have a good wind resource, and unfortunately - that almost always means a tall tower.  VAWT or HAWT matters not - the wind is not available on most roof tops or near the ground.  Furthermore - to get much energy, you need a lot of swept area.  There is a reason you won't find much data about the performance of vertical axis machines that are currently 'available'.  A couple of manufacturers come to mind - pacwind (I challenge anybody to find some real world data) and the Mariah windspire.  There is interesting real world data about that machine finally here:  http://www.nrel.gov/wind/smallwind/mariah_power.html

If it's for fun I say go for whatever so long as it's not going to hurt anybody other than yourself!  If the goal is reasonably cost effective energy than I am very much against anything on a roof top and the odds are well stacked against any vertical machine in my opinion.

[ Parent ]



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by tecker on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 02:32:39 AM MST

As people get up to speed on these devices they will see a real need to get up to speed on the the workings and maintainence . There has to be control and a service industry following the range of machines that connect to the grid , a constant money drain  .  Understanding will always split into two groups those that want to take over the extra work and enjoy that involvement and those that don't want any more than a minimum envolvement and will just buy a unit and look for some value it offers. Grid tie has not come of age yet you still see only the bad side meters turning backwards and really large devices that are out of the range of people that want to get involved with RE .Battery charges and household systems are in there and  will grow with those that to get involve with RE .    



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Top of the Hill on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:11:20 AM MST

That was a fun time, but to think that you guys made the trip in a '66 Volvo wagon what a trip you guys must of had.  
http://hobbiezones.com/page9.php


Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by IL Bill on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 07:33:10 AM MST

I wish I would have been able to go to the MREA Fair. Spend Saturday 6/20 upgrading an inverter/hatch assembly on a Skystream. Maybe next year.



Re: MREA small wind conference and energy fair (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by richhagen on Mon Jun 29, 2009 at 03:53:44 PM MST

It looks like it was a bunch of fun.  I've been trying to get to this for the last few years.  It would have been fun to see the Dan's and crew again.  I seem to always be out of town, or away at the time of this event.  This year I was in Italy at the time, and I didn't see a whole lot of RE going on in the parts I was at.  Rich
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'


MREA small wind conference and energy fair | 8 comments (8 topical)
Display: Sort:
Menu
· create account
· How to use the board
· FAQs
· search the board
· Google search the board

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Total Views
  127 Scoop users have viewed this posting.

Related Links
· Also by DanB

Powered by Scoop
You must be a registered user to post here. It's easy and free, and the link is on the upper right side of your page.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Postings are owned by the poster, but may be deleted or moved at the ADMIN's sole discretion. The Rest © 2009 Forcefield.
You can Email the board ADMIN here. PLEASE include the username you signed up with!