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Multi strand wire


By Bruce S, Section Wind
Posted on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 08:34:45 PM MST
more than one wire in hand math

All;
As I continue to read and do extra design calcs for the home made alt , I have decided to go with using a multi-strand wire for each coil.

There are a few reasons but mainly due to wire on hand. AND making stuff out of what I already have is more fun.

After a long search here and all over the web and tons of reading, crossed eyes and even several cool ones :)
I think I have the math understood, but would like just check to be sure .

In order to find what the equilant wire guage size I've cobbled togther this worded term.

" Final wire size would be: AWG diameter (of wire to be used) squared times the number of strands to be used times the square root of this number is ~ the new wire size diameter"

or (D*D)(#x)(Sqrt)equals equivalent AWG of single strand of larger size.

So if I am using 22 ga D=0.0253. D*D=0.0253*0.0253=.00064 (three in hand)*3=0.00192 times  Square root of this = .0438 which is between 17 & 18 AWG.

Does this look correct?

I'm not taking too much else into account, merely making sure I have the math needed understood first.

Cheers;
Bruce S

Multi strand wire | 10 comments (10 topical)

Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by rfrink on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 02:45:41 PM MST

Hi Bruce,  I'm sorry but I didn't understand your math.

For me, I just match or exceed the cross sectional area.

For example, if wire gage "A" has 10 sq inches but I want to use multi strands of wire gage "B" which has a cross sestion of 1 sq inch.

..then I simply use 10 strands of "B" to match or exceed the equivalent cross section of "A".

-Rob




Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Bruce S on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 03:08:04 PM MST

Rob;
 That might just be too easy for me to understand :0.

Thanks!!
I'll give a try too.

Cheers
Bruce S


[ Parent ]



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by richhagen on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 03:40:51 PM MST

Hi Bruce,
For this type of alternator, it is the cross sectional area that matters.  I wrote a little program a long time ago which you can use to convert the U.S. AWG size to square millimeters for comparison as well as calculating the resistance and some other stuff which might be of use to you.  It is in VB 6, so it will only run on Windows.  It is small and stored locally.  Rich

Here is the link:
http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/742/WIRECALC.exe
'A Joule saved is a Joule made'
[ Parent ]



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by Bruce S on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 04:10:32 PM MST

Rich;
 I'll pull it in once home and give it a whirl!!

Many Thanks!!
Bruce S

[ Parent ]



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by tecker on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 05:27:59 PM MST

I like to use smaller wire because the wire circumference and bending radius is a good match for power in small coils.



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Tue Jun 30, 2009 at 07:23:08 PM MST

Looks correct.

Rule of thumb is that going two-in-hand is going thicker by three wire gauges.  (Don't know if that's exact or just quite close.)  That matches going three in hand (halfway between two and four times the arad) resulting in going down to the crack between dropping four and five gauges.

Going N-in-hand, rather than a single wire of the same total cross-section, has a couple advantages:
 - It's easier to wind.
 - There's a slight drop in eddy current losses.  (Not a big deal, unless you're coming down from copper bar or pipe to thin wire, because most of the copper loss is resistive drop from the output current.)

The packing fraction is the same whether it's a single or N-in-hand (assuming the thick wire isn't so thick that the springiness keeps it from packing tightly or the thin wire's insulation is significantly thicker in proportion to the copper diameter.



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by zeusmorg on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 04:59:09 AM MST

 One thing, calculating all this will get you close, however it would be a really good idea to do a test coil to check your final results, sometimes the math will vary from the reality!



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by Bruce S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 07:55:54 AM MST

Tecker;
 I'm thinking the same thing since stuff here in the city must look like lawn art or the busy-bodies will call on you <:.

ULR;
Thanks for the math check.
The thinner wire also seems to be easier to find for free to near free.
I'll also make note of the resistance that comes along with too.

Z-
Yup, Theory is nice to get a starting point, but nothing like doing the do and see.

All;

We can't put up here in the city, anything near what could be deemed a true HAWT of even good sized VAWT.

I have gotten back to a small idea from a few years ago of building lots of smaller sized VAWTs bolted along the fence line, and linking them together for battery charging. Certainly not the best place and will more than likely be nothing more than battery charging will see.  

I'm currently not out to put AmerenUE out of biz or anything pie-eyed like that. Grid tied is for someone with deeper pockets than me...

However, after the last power loss, where only a few neighbors and I were the ones with lights and coffee, more people are open to the idea of what I'm attempting.

City inspector ( whom I now know by sight and first name) is understanding and interested in the small stuff too.

The NiCd battery packs seemed to have gelled into good sized 20Ahr units and bringing them up to 14.4Vdc seems to make the MSW inverters work just fine, even powered a small 600 watt Microwave without kicking the LVD or melting anything.
AND with G-s dump controllers, the NiCds are happy little charged campers:> BUT I can't keep relying only on the 1/2 dozen HF PVs.

Thanks ALL for the input.
Next stop coil winder :)

Cheers;

Bruce S



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:18:39 PM MST

If your fence is oriented roughly at right angles to the prevailing wind you might consider putting a long crosswind-axis turbine on it.  (Think "VAWT turned on its side".)

(If it's not roughly at right angles to the prevailing winds a row of mills on it will interfere with each other unless they're spaced out a bunch.  B-)  )

That will let you get to a nontrivial amount of wind collection with a single device, likely saving you cost and construction effort.  (It will also get you a lot of wind load so be sure your fence posts are up to it or add bracing / guying.  You also might want to do it in segments and put a bearing/support at each fence pole.)

Hmmm...   "VAWT" vs. "HAWT" is actually a misnomer.  B-(

[ Parent ]



Re: Multi strand wire (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by Bruce S on Fri Jul 10, 2009 at 07:47:27 AM MST

ULR;
  Thinking along this line as well.
Way back in the day; Windstuff Ed has suggested the same thing, but as life goes; "other" things got in the way.

Now with 13 spools of small 22 & 24 ga wire, gathered up( mainly from de-gaussing coils)(its amazing how much wire old weed wacker spools will hold) and a water jet cutter I can barter with, I'm back to designing this setup.
Strongest part of the fence is the East side and running N-S and from taking sample winds each for a week or more, also looks to be the side with the most consistant wind.

Winds averaged out 3.7 mph with coming from my digital weather station, so I'll be theroyizing <spelled wrong on purpose :) this out.<p> My magnets are going to be two different types, Neos for some, and since I have a 100+ of the ceramic 1x2x1/2, quite a few of those.

Maybe come up with a new new slang for the Vertical mounted at different angle(s) SAWT(s) Sideways Angled Wind Turb :] AWT(s)? Angled Wind Turb ?

Since these will have stress on the tops due to the angle, and using just a little math from mech. engineer days, I've decided to go with an enclosed race bearing setup support for the top (these can double a bean, and cucumber poles during the growing seasons)

Or just have fun with it.

Going on the 3x4 rule for Sov based turbines , I'm starting one small unit for the cities sake. It's currently coming in at 27 inches wide by 36 inches tall. NOT a lot of surface area , but ... gotta get cities nod for these :/

More to follow:
Cheers
Bruce S

 

[ Parent ]



Multi strand wire | 10 comments (10 topical)
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