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Please help me understand electrical power


By rfrink, Section Wind
Posted on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 04:55:22 PM MST
Sketch and Photo of my Alternator test set-up

As posted in LenzII update, I'm testing my alternator before I put it in the wind.

But I really don't know what I'm doing and could use some help.

I've mounted my alternator in a milling machine where I can drive the rotors at various speeds.  

I've spun it through a speed range and measured the open DC voltage.

This morning, I hooked up a pair of auto headlights to the DC side of the rectifier.  At first, I ran it slow..about 70 rpm..and gradually increased the speed while I watched for temperature rises in the components.  

Here's a sketch of my set-up:

How do I determine how much power I'm making?  
I can measure the any leg of 3ph AC voltage at A1,A2 and A3.
I can use a clip-on amp meter to read the AC current on A1, A2 and A3.
I can read the DC volts at B1 and B2.  
And I can read the resistance of my headlamps.

So now what...?  P=volts^2/Resitance=IR^2....this stuff is faintly ringing a bell upstairs....uhhg!  Where do I take measurements?

I'm hoping to determine some sort of "safe" power level so that when the Lenz is flying, I can take a few readings to determine if it is operating in at a safe wind level...or if I need to shut it down and wait for calmer weather.

Thoughts about power?

Thanks, Rob

Please help me understand electrical power | 13 comments (13 topical)

Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by Bruce S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 11:18:57 AM MST

Rob-
Remind us of what the open voltages were.
Headlights come in different wattages, most small 9inch round ones are 53watts.

Couple things you can do, since the operating volatge of the headlights are known too.
12Vdc hooked to a batt = 53 watt draw = ~ 4 amps continous.
How bright did the light shine?

You can hook an Amp meter in series between the DC out and the headlight, make sure you're on the high Amp plugs and setting.

While running this you CAN get an Amp off the AC side, but going into headlight would be best.

Got a 2nd meter? you could while all this is running hook a 2nd meter across the headlight prongs, set for 20 Volts or higher DC and get a reading while unit is running.

These are quick and dirty and won't give you the highest output load of your 'mill but will get you some numbers.

Cheers
Bruce S



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by rfrink on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 02:55:52 PM MST

Thanks Bruce!  I don't have an amp meter that I can hook up in series. For an amp meter, I just have an inductive clamp type for AC lines.

OK..I looked up the head lights. They are Sylvania H6024, 55 watts ea. as I burned them.

Their brightness depended on the rotor speed...at the slowest ~70 rpm..they are yellow and at the fastest that I ran, ~120 rpm...they were dazzling white. (real technical stuff here :)

Here's a few reading that I took with 2 headlights hooked up:

At 70 rpm: AC voltage across the 3 legs at "A" measured 4.1V per leg with a current of 1.5A per leg.  The DC voltage at "B" measured 4.4VDC.  

At 80 rpm: AC volts at "A" measured 5.0 VAC at 2.2 amps per leg and teh DC voltage at "B" was 5.5 VDC.

The AC current was measured with an inductive type clamp on meter.

I left it running for about 30 minutes.  The stator and recifiers were just a little warm..not much heat...but I stsrted to notice some oozing liquid around a coil in the polyester resin....not sure what it was...then I think saw some discoloring in the resign from random "hot spots" in the coils. So I shut everything down.

Oh yeah...here's my open DC voltages:

-Rob


[ Parent ]



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by wooferhound on Wed Jul 01, 2009 at 04:47:37 PM MST

I think you are missing a very important part in your circuit to make measurements. I would put a large capacitor across the 'B' connection points, something bigger than 10000 microfarad, more is better. The DC voltage at that point is a dirty spikey unsmooth power that will lead to incorrect readings. In your earlier post you mentioned that you hooked up an inverter to this setup, I am actually surprised that it functioned at all operating from this dirty power. The capacitor will not be needed when you have a battery connected since a battery acts somewhat like a large capacitor.
W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by commanda on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 02:06:54 AM MST

And I can read the resistance of my headlamps.

So now what...?  P=volts^2/Resitance=IR^2....

The resistance of your headlamps is highly non-linear. Measuring the resistance cold with a multimeter doesn't tell you much; the resistance will increase considerably as they start to give off light (and generate heat).  

Best approach in your situation is to find a low value, high power resistor (put in series with your lamps), and measure the voltage across that to calculate the current. Nought point one ohms (0.1 R) at 5 or 10 watts would probably do. A finger calibrated in degree's C could come in handy.

Amanda



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Madscientist267 on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:05:24 PM MST

A finger calibrated in degree's C could come in handy.

Calibration as follows?

Not Warm = No Power
Warm = Some Power
Warmer = More Power
Hot = Lotta power
Damn Hot = Got Joose!

Am I close? LOL

[ Parent ]



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by tecker on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 03:06:22 AM MST

The bottom line is the Lenz your working with is self limiting up the materials your using so you can let it fly if you can get an idea of the way the torque will effect the rotor .



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by rfrink on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 07:07:57 AM MST

"The bottom line is the Lenz your working with is self limiting up the materials your using so you can let it fly if you can get an idea of the way the torque will effect the rotor."

Thank you for the note Tecker...can you explain a little more please..?


[ Parent ]



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by tecker on Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 07:28:21 AM MST

The size of the blades and the large front foil make the blades top out at 300 rpm or s (Check with Ed on his wind tunnel test )

[ Parent ]


Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by rfrink on Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 10:48:00 AM MST

Yes, I see...got it. Thank you.  

I'm not sure if it's good or bad...but that is one of the reasons why I choose the LenzII for my first try.

-Rob


[ Parent ]



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by ghurd on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 07:35:28 AM MST

The problem is no battery for testing, no controller, and no DC ammeter?

The ammeter is an easy fix.  Will need one soon anyway.

Looks like a big shop.  Can you get a car in there close enough to connect its battery?
Or maybe run wires out a window?
The battery in a running car with the headlights on will soak up a Lot of amps, and maintain a fairly stable 14.3V or so.
Just a thought.
G-



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by rfrink on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 08:08:01 AM MST

Thanks ghurd! I didn't even think about that.

Duh!(forehead slap!)...there's a forklift sitting just outside of the photo frame...I mean...inches away!....and the battery box is on the correct side for an easy hook up.  

Now where did I put my keys? Honey, have you seen my glasses? I can't find my wallet! (hee hee).  Oh gosh, sometimes it's hard to see the forest because of all the trees.

Anyway...I've decided to quit fooling around on the bench and put the Lenz up in the wind.  I think I can get it up on the tower this afternoon.  Maybe run some electrical lines this weekend...

-Rob

[ Parent ]



Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by ghurd on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 08:28:12 AM MST

Leave it running, with all the lights on.  Fan, stereo, etc?
The lights, ignition, etc needs to use more amps than the bench test PMA is making or the battery volts will climb.
Car lights use more than 20A all together.  Last Hyster I drove only had 2 little 50W bulbs and a little fan.
G-

[ Parent ]


Re: Please help me understand electrical power (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by SparWeb on Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 09:11:25 AM MST

Maybe you would find a brush-up on Ohm's law helpful, too.  I was very mixed up when I started building this stuff and did a few pointless things.

For example, when you are testing "open-circuit", then no current is flowing, so the voltage developed at the rectifiers is unaffected by current:

I=V/R  
...in the open-circuit case, the resistance between the leads out of the rectifiers is nearly infinite (air, or a very high resistance circuit in the volt-meter) so the current is zero.

If you plug a 1-ohm resistor across a car battery, then the current flowing from the battery, through the resistor, back to the battery can be worked out:

I= 12v / 1 ohm = 12 amps    

I= 12v / 0.1 ohm = 120 amps

Many things that provide you with voltage, such as car batteries and alternators, like the one you've built, are actually affected by the current when it flows.  Put a larger current load on the battery, and you will be able to see its voltage drop.  For example, if the voltage was 12v when the battery was unused, and putting a 1 ohm resistance across gives you 12 amps, then putting a 0.1 ohm load across it will not get you 120 amps.  Not because Ohm's law changed, it's because the voltage that the battery can supply is limited.

I = 10v / 0.1 ohm = 100 amps
...is more what you would expect by pulling 100 amps out of a car battery.  You can try this and check with a voltmeter across the battery terminals.

Your alternator is also affected in this way, not for the same reason.  The battery works on chemistry, the alternator works on alternating magnetic fields.  In both of these devices there is an action and a reaction.  They make current flow, but the current they can produce is limited by a reaction inside them.

Most people aren't used to this because mains 120v power from the grid is rarely affected by this.  The effect is actually there, but it's hard to notice because it's so small, and it has more to do with the wiring in your house than anything happening at the electric utility.

The graph of voltage you plotted for us earlier looks good.  Now that you've mentioned that you let things warm up, that may explain the "step" in your graph.  Once electric equipment heats up, the resistance to electricity also increases.  The magnetic permeability of many materials are also affected.  When you start tying battery charge tests, you'll also find that the voltage of the batteries rise up and up.  There's not a lot you can do to prevent that without investing in battery charge control equipment, so I wouldn't worry about it.  If you use enough of the forklift batteries, the alternator won't over-charge them anyway.

The alternator also looks well suited to the speed of a VAWT, but you will not know until you mate the two whether they work together.  To be honest, going the distance to carefully load test the alternator with a battery setup will not help figure this out much, so you could just put them all up and see what happens!

Since you say you've observed some softening of the resin in your previous tests, then I'd still encourage some bench tests to monitor that.  Running the alternator under battery charging load will heat it up a lot more than before.  Did you post-cure the resin after it first hardened?

Good luck.  Thank you for posting so much info and excellent work!

Steven Fahey



Please help me understand electrical power | 13 comments (13 topical)
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