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solar panels/watts


By smokepolehall, Section Newbies
Posted on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:09:14 PM MST
Battery Bank 1000 amps

how many panels of 180 watts would it take to keep 1000 amp battery bank up on a daily basis ? being a newbie & math challanged. i know my ussage on watts would be 1200 to 1500 an hr and some hrs only 600 or so. thanks
solar panels/watts | 15 comments (15 topical)

Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by RandomJoe on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 10:07:08 AM MST

Need more information.

First, you need to know your solar insolation.  Or, how many hours of "full sun" you get.  This is not just "how long it's light out".  This table can get you close if you are in the US:
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-insolation-window.html

If you want to be able to always recharge, even in winter, go with the smallest number.

Then you need to know how many amp-hours you are going to remove from the batteries each day.  You know how much wattage you are going to run, but how many watt-hours?  How long will you be running 1200-1500W?  How long at 600W?

Also need to know the voltage of the battery bank, as that factors into converting between amp-hours and watt-hours.  (I'm assuming here you mean your battery bank is 1000 amp-hours.  Amps are just an instantaneous measurement, amp-hours is a capacity.)

So, for an example, I'll makes some assumptions:

Insolation:  Mine is 4.98 hours.
Battery bank: 48V / 1000AH
Usage: 6 hrs @ 1500W, 12 hrs @ 600W (the true values here could make a huge difference)

So, from that:
Total usage: 6 hrs x 1500W = 9000Wh, 12 hrs x 600W = 7200Wh, total = 16,200 Wh per day.

Battery bank capacity: 48V x 1000AH = 48,000 Wh

So you would be using 16,200 / 48,000 = 0.3375 or about 34% of the bank capacity per day.  Not a needed number for the panels, but does tell you you won't really have much reserve capacity - two days without sun and you're below 50% discharge.  Lead-acid batteries really don't like being taken below 50%, their life can be significantly shortened if it happens very often.

Required solar capacity: 16,200Wh / 4.98 hours insolation = 3,253W of solar panels.

NOTE that this does NOT account for system inefficiencies!  (Inverter losses, battery charging/discharging incurs losses, charge controllers can have a little loss, so forth...)  Different people factor in different amounts, up to 50%, for that.  If you are off-grid and rely on this solely, you probably want to do that too!  Which makes it 6,500W of solar panels.  (Personally, I didn't use this heavy of a factor for my own system, but then mine is completely non-critical - my house is on the grid - and nowhere near this big!)

So divide by the panel ratings and you get somewhere between 18 and 36 180W panels.  Lean toward the middle or high side, 18 really isn't going to cut it.  (You are rarely if ever going to get the full wattage rating of a panel, due to the way they are rated.  Better manufacturers will tell you the "real" rating in their data sheets, look for the "PTC" rating instead of the "STC" rating.)

Again, there are areas where this calculation can change radically.  Odds are you will have a different solar insolation.  You may not use as much power as I figured, or you may use more.  Hopefully you aren't intending to run a lower voltage battery bank, the currents are going to get enormous!

Hope that helps...!




Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by smokepolehall on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 12:38:09 PM MST

my sun will be at 4 hrs winter time. i have 12vdc & i will have between 1000 & 1500 amps. using maxx 29 at 125 amp each. so 18 to 36 panels be some kind of pocket change. figuring $800 a pop. will have a home made gen./ battery gen. alt. set-up can make up about 60 amps once i get it all fixed. my cost during summer is avg. $180 a month in gas on a borrowed gen. well looks like lots of money over the next 10 yrs and learning

[ Parent ]


Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 01:13:54 PM MST

I think first we need to quantify the hours.

You basically told us you car has a 20 gallon gas tank, gets 30MPG highway, and 20MPG city.
Then asked how many gallons of gas you need a day to buy.
We need to know how far you drive!

I am not sure what changed, but your earlier figure of 27 amps "with everything on" is only <400W, or a 24/7 max of 650AH per day at 12V.
That would be 16 panels with 4 hours of solar insolation.
Hopefully Everything is not on 24/7.

Pure guessing?

A 10 year old 10A Schumacker charger would average about 6A into the batteries?  Less than 6A with my Schumacker, which is a 25 year old 20A.
And 6 hours a day = 36 amp-hours.  6 amps x 6 hours = 36 AH per day from the generator.

That would imply you need 36AH per day, plus 10~20% fudge factor.  About 42AH per day.
A single 180W panel would be pretty close to covering that.

A 180W panel will make about 10A.  Maybe 11A.
And a 4 hour solar insolation means 10A x 4 hours = 44AH per day, per panel.

Winter will most probably be less than 4 hours of insolation per day, worst case.
Mine is about the worst in the lower 48 at 0.5 hours, but guessing a 180W panel would cover me for 8~9 months per year.

One more thing to consider.
Those 120~150W panels look pretty cheap... by the Watt.
BUT.  
If you only need 1 or 2 or 6, it is usually Cheaper to buy smaller panels.
The large panels must be shipped on skids, and it can cost a few hundred dollars to ship ONE panel.
I find UPS is cheaper for less than about a half-full skid of panels.
And I was charged an additional $100 to deliver a (1/4 full?) skid of panels to a "residential address without a shipping dock"(?).
A couple Big panels do not look so cheap with freight charges.

Have to look at all the angles when considering "cost".
G-
Ghurd.info



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by independent on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 02:39:14 PM MST

Is a shipping dock a raised platform that is equal to the height of the platform of the truck? So, the truckie doesn't need to use a hydraulic bed to unload?
Just a guess


[ Parent ]


Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by spinningmagnets on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:08:47 PM MST

Yes, almost all freight trucks will carry a "hand-truck" inside the trailer which is a manual pallet-mover. But it can't move a pallet from a cargo trailer to a pick-up bed or a driveway.

Any truck depot with a dock-high loading/unloading door will probably have a forklift available. Double-trailered trucks are a cheaper way to transport cargo long distances (as opposed to a single trailer. Twice the cargo, only one driver paycheck). Some single trailers or straight-framed class-B trucks (like a large U-Haul) have a hydraulic lift, and can deliver to a house.

Worst-case scenario, the cargo pieces can be loaded with a forklift, then broken down and handed out piece by piece at the destination. But, time is money.

[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:35:27 PM MST

Sometimes a driver will call you ahead of time.
I put 3 skids of flashlights in 2 small pickup trucks with about 25 minutes notice,
in a public area, 5 miles from here, where he was going to be anyway, and got no extra charge.
Another driver did not charge me 'residential' because we just threw the items out into my yard.
Depends on the driver?
Roadway had a charge because I picked it up myself?  Never used them again.
G-

Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]


Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by smokepolehall on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 02:41:11 PM MST

thanks i just didn't know how to figure the math on this stuff. we consume 27 amps max going by the data plate tags. most the time i doesn't have all on it at once. it will take me awhile to get these things bought and get them all tied in together. i really know nothing this stuff cept what i read and the answers i receive. many thanks to all who help me along on this project. didn't know they charge several hundred $ to ship a panel. what would be the best size to get ?


[ Parent ]


Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by ghurd on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:22:24 PM MST

Well.....  
"Usually?"
Usually UPS will bring a 85W to a residence, and two 85W in one box cost about the same as one.  Depends on the size.
Usually 50W is considerably more $ per watt than 60-85W for the PV itself.
Usually shipping two 80W in one box costs about the same as shipping two 50W in one box.  Not really the same, but so close you can't believe it.

Many of the large wattage panels do not come in a factory box for retail sales, so the retailer must supply a shipping carton.  
Trust me, Boxes and Bubblewrap ain't cheap.

I would look into 70-90W class panels (not thin-film or amorphous silicone), and get a firm UPS shipping cost before committing to the purchase.
A real mail-order dealer/distributor will have that info on his desk when you speak to him.  It may take him a minute to find it, but he won't have to return your call tomorrow or Monday or the week after next.

It would not surprise me if you could get Four 75W (300W total) for a smidgen more total cost than One 180W, if delivery charges are included.
I am sure that is not always the case.  I am simply saying check the TOTAL cost when they get to you.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by RandomJoe on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:36:57 PM MST

I used 135W Kyocera panels, and the shipping on those was perfectly reasonable, just typical weight-based charges maybe $20-30.  However, they are just about the largest size that can be "manhandled" by the UPS driver.  Mine were delivered in individual boxes to my office by the regular UPS truck, carried in by hand - not unloaded at a dock.

Bought mine at Northern Arizona Wind & Sun, they have a note on their solar panels page that basically says anything over 135W is considered "oversize" by UPS and shipped on a pallet.  Think that was one of the reasons I went with the ones I did...!

They are also having a "sale" on some brands, including the Kyoceras (didn't look around much, so not sure just how big of a deal it is) so I got mine for around $500 each with shipping.


[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by RandomJoe on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 03:40:30 PM MST

Dang it, now you have me thinking about buying a few more to add to my array! ;-p  I have room on the south face for another set of four, then on to the west face of the roof...!

This really is an addiction, you know...! :-D


[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by Madscientist267 on Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 08:03:51 AM MST

I dont exactly want to pee in your cheerios here, but I hope that your wallet is deep. You're kinda jumping in willy-nilly and you're going to make some rather expensive mistakes. 12V at those power levels is insane, just as a starting point. Your losses in the wiring alone will be increasing your overhead significantly, and you'd have to spend a lot more money just to offset it.

Seriously, do some homework - plan this out a bit more carefully, lest ye haveth abilities to bestow one's self of benjamin foleage...

Know what I mean?

Steve

[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by TomW on Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 09:20:33 AM MST

What Steve said.. Cubed!

No truly serious system design would start by imposing that 12 volt limit without extreme reasons for doing so.

There is a false sense of economy because you can "use automotive stuff". Sadly it is just wrong.

Take a deep breath, exhale it slowly and start researching RE DC power systems and you will be much better informed on how to spend your [hard earned] money wisely.

Just how it is.

Tom

The Truth is the Truth, even if no one believes it; and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it


[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by smokepolehall on Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 08:11:30 PM MST

ok i have to have power from some where. i am not going to get a electric company power. they told me flat out i didn't have enough easement. so that leaves me with only the hard way off grid. i figured battery bank & gen. of which the good ppl here have shown me how to build one. then its solar panels one at a time. we mostly run a 4.5 amp fan when its hot and the small 6000 btu a/c when the gen. is on. our laptops run off their battery & battery bank & gen. when its on. so i will certainly follow some good advice as to what i should do. so my funds won't be thrown away. thanks everyone


[ Parent ]


Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by ghurd on Tue Jul 21, 2009 at 06:06:09 AM MST

It is easier to Save power than Make power.

There are ways to reduce power used with the same result, such as a DC fan.
Here are 2 DC fans that use between 2 and 9.5W,
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/23942/1876
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/7/8/172317/7334

I am guessing the 4.5A fan is 115VAC.  518W.
For example, if it is On high 4 hours a day (same as your solar insolation for easy math), solar needs to make 518W for 4 hours a day.
That takes 675W of solar panels.  (ignoring the inverter losses for simplicity)
But the 9.5W fan only needs a 12.5W panel.
The silly fan just saved 662.5W of solar panels.

A/C is something best left to the generator.
G-
Ghurd.info
[ Parent ]



Re: solar panels/watts (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by wooferhound on Mon Jul 20, 2009 at 09:11:44 PM MST

if you are pulling 27 amps at 120 volts, your inverter will pull 10 times that from the battery, so with loses your inverter will be pulling more than 270 amps from a 12 volt battery bank.

W o o f -={(

[ Parent ]


solar panels/watts | 15 comments (15 topical)
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