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Alternator Problems


By madlabs, Section Controls
Posted on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 03:31:36 PM MST
What is going on here?

Hi All,

Suddenly the output of my alternator has dropped. My bro in law and I took the rig apart to reinforce the mount, because we could see that it was tweaking a little when tensioning the belt properly. Put it all back together and the output has dropped in half! One minor difference is that we tensioned the belt a little more, since we could. I just backed it off and no change.

The alternator is a 110-555-JHO. It has the AC taps on the back. At 14.1VDC output, the AC taps all read between 12.69 to 12.74 between any two of them. That would seem to indicate that all the coils are OK. Any other measurements I can take?

The motor seems to be running fine and revving up as much as before. I can push the throttle open a little more, and the output does go up, but the motor sounds stressed and the govenor is trying to push back.

Any trouble shooting tips? I'm a little stumped.

Jonathan

Alternator Problems | 17 comments (17 topical)

Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#1)
by bob g on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:30:40 AM MST

your getting up to 14.1volts?  motor loading down?

how many amps are you pushing?

are you still with the same drive ratio 2.55 on the engine and 3.95 on alternator?

more info needed, but from what you have provided the alternator does not seem to be the problem

bob g



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#3)
by bob g on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:41:41 AM MST

more questions

is the alternator turning the right direction, it will of course work either way
but the fan is optimized to run in one direction only,

its possible you have toasted a diode or two, but these units seem very durable to
some hard work, i know i have beaten mine have to death in testing, and it is still doing its thing.

another thought, are you using the oem regulator?
if so as the alternator gets hot it will derate the volts and in turn lower the amps
as well.

maybe your load if it is batteries are getting charged up enough to where they only need half of what you originally could get out of the alternator?

are you sure of your meters accuracy?  is it possible the alternator is putting out
much more than your meters are telling you? i know i have had all sorts of issues
with meters and getting accurate readings, most especially on the dc amps using a shunt,

all else fails , take it off and take it in for testing, usually alternator starter repair places will spin it up and do a full test for no fee, or only a slight fee.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#2)
by Flux on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:35:09 AM MST

I agree about the lack of information . To me it has all the symptoms of belt slip. Not sure how he is supplying the field but if it is direct then I think it will work better with a field rheo, cut the field current and run the alternator faster and with less torque.

I don't think it is an alternator problem either.

Flux



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#4)
by zeusmorg on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:42:00 AM MST

 Check field connections?



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#5)
by Flux on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:47:10 AM MST

I didn't consider that he might be using the internal regulator if so at 14.1 v out the thing will be near cut off and won't produce much current.

flux

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#6)
by bob g on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 01:14:03 PM MST

this particular unit has a rear cover that encloses the brushes and sliprings
within the back of this little cover is potted the regulator, if he is using it
it will temp compensate as it gets hot and reduce both volts and amps,but
i am not sure he is using it or not.

it takes only 4 little screws, to remove exposing two spade terminals wire connections to the brushes, and two spades to the stator interally,
simple to remove and just plug in whatever you want to the field via the 1/4"spade
terminals.

i think he is using a reostat, but not sure.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#7)
by madlabs on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 02:39:51 PM MST

Some more info...

I checked for pulley/ belt slip. Everything seems OK. I am using a rheostat, but have also tried directly jumping the field to the hot terminal, same result. I am now wondering if maybe the engine isn't running as well, maybe tipping it up and down playing with the mount or belt tension dislodged a piece of crap in the carb or something. I guess I will take the alt in for a test, bummer as the nearest place is a 50 mile round trip.

I have tried 2 different gauges and shunts, both read the same although they are cheapies. Same drive ratio, 3.95" on the alt, 2.95" on the motor.

It's just so odd that the output would drop in half so suddenly. No way to test the diodes without pulling it apart, correct?



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#8)
by bob g on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 02:57:04 PM MST

no good way other than checking the voltage across the ac terminals
to make sure all is even there, as you have

the rectifier bridge in the new series 555jho has the diodes in a sort of harness
assembly that welds the leads in rather than seperate wires that you could simply part from the stator to check each individually, so its hard to make sense which diode you are checking and which you aren't with these new rectifiers.

i highly doubt you have a rectifier problem unless you have been running it backwards so that the fan cannot pull in enough air and been running it at continous high amperage of over maybe 120amps, which is doubtful with you ratio.

its possible that when you tipped up the deck to do the work, maybe some crap got dislodged in the float bowl and is now caught in the main jet? starving a bit on fuel will certainly cut power out of the engine and result in power being down on the alternator.

do you recall any short circuits while running? if it happened you would recall them because they are very hot indeed.

people use alternators like these to run 3/32" welding rod, so its hard to imagine
how you might have hurt it,, however

because you are using a reostat, the field will stay high for heavy loading ~120amps
if you suddenly removed the load, or lost connection the voltage will spike to very highvoltage, the diodes these new alternators are avalanche type and will clamp to ground at ~30vdc,
this doesn't seem to hurt them intermittently, but it might if it last for very long or at very high voltages,, its possible then to have damaged one or more of the rectifiers.

if this turns out to be the case:

let me know, as there are replacement diodes available for that unit that can handle
more current than the oem's and are not avalanche type, and have a PIV rating of 200volts. they are quite reasonably priced, but require removal or your diodes from the heat sinks, and press in the new ones, make up new leads and solder in, etc.
takes a bit, but is a good fix.

had you kept the regulator in place it is fast enough to save the rectifier in case of a rapid load dump or loss of load.

getting ahead of myself here, first things first
gotta find out whether its the engine thats down on power or a failed rectifer

so ask yourself these questions

did i have a short?

did i break connection to the load while the alternator was putting out high current?

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#9)
by Ungrounded Lightning Rod on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 04:31:28 PM MST

If the RPMs are the same and you're running with a rheostat, a 50% drop in output current sounds like you lost a phase.  Open wire in the winding or one or two open diodes.

If you can get to them while things are spinning, check the voltage (relative to ground/negative) at each of the AC terminals - one check with the meter set to AC volts, one set to DC.  If the diodes and the coils are right all three AC readings should be within a couple percent and all three DC readings ditto.  If one is off significantly from the other two it's time to tear it down and check the coils and diodes.



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#10)
by madlabs on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 06:33:27 PM MST

Ok, I measured again. All three AC terminals read the same, both AC and DC relative to ground. The DC readings are bouncy, but appear to be the same.

Bob, I never had a short or disconnected the output terminal. I did disconect the field wire a couple of times.

The alternator will put out more if I push the RPM's up. This motor has a govenor, and it sounds like it is running faster and harder if I make the system output 100 amps, which it was doing no problems before. I have a spare carb, I'm going to try that tomorrow.

The unit is running counter-clockwise, as you look at the pulley. I think this is backwards. I haven't run it all that hard, outputting 100 amps for a few hours total, not more than a couple of hours at a time.

Turns out I can't test the alt locally at all. Bummer.

At this point, considering the measurements above, should I tear into the motor or the alt first?

Thanks for all the help guys, I really appreciate it.

Jonathan



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#11)
by bob g on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 06:48:04 PM MST

check the front of the fan there will be an arrow showing direction

if it turns out you are turning backwards there are straight cut bidirectional
fans readily available, and i understand the optimized reverse direction fans
on special order.

if you choose to use the straight fan, limit the current to no more than 140amps
cold and about 120hot and you will be golden,, the straight cut fans were for prior
versions up to 140amp units.

if you can speed up and now get full power, i am thinking you have an issue with the motor. usually if the alternator has lost a phase speeding it up makes very little difference, unless you speedup a couple thousand rpm at the alternator.

it is very unlikely that you have smoked the stator, not impossible but very unlikely. more likely a diode turned loose if the alternator turns up to be the problem.

this problem is why i am not crazy about using a reostat to control the field
as the only control handle for these high output alternators, it requires a lot of babysitting. a controller such as the balmar would have an optional alternator temp sensor and it would have caught the unit and derated it to 50% if it overheated.

this is assuming of course its the alternator and not an engine problem.

and that is a big assumption at this point,

ok now another question

how fast were you running the engine in the first tests, 3600rpm or so?

you mention that the output goes back up to 100amps if you speed up the engine?
if you are running at 3600rpm how much faster can you speed up? doesn't seem likely you would get maybe another 500rpm out of the engine without it sounding like it is going to blow.

if this is the case, it seems likely to me the alternator is fine, and i am looking
back at the engines ability to pull the load.

sorry to hear your having issues with this setup, everything was looking so good
and promising.

likely something simple we are missing here.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#12)
by scottsAI on Wed Sep 09, 2009 at 10:34:33 PM MST

Madlabs,

The DC readings are bouncy,

My instincts say something is wrong if bouncy. You know this, does not help define if electrical or mechanical. May help if we understand exactly what you were measuring.

Have fun,
Scott.

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#13)
by madlabs on Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 08:12:46 AM MST

Scott,

The measurements that are bouncy are between the negative output terminal and the AC taps on the DC setting of the meter. Wouldn't one expect that to be bouncy? The AC readings between the negative output terminal and the AC taps is very steady, as are the readings between all the AC taps.

I think today I may kludge up a RPM meter. I have some Hall effect switches, should be able to get them to trigger from the ignition magnet in the flywheel. If not I can add a magnet. Or perhaps an inductive pickup off the ignition wire through an optoisolator.

I figure that way I can figger the alt RPM and the check it versus the power curve in the alt spec sheet. That should help me narrow down the issue.

Again, thanks for the help, folks.

Jonathan



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#14)
by bob g on Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 09:34:21 AM MST

check your stator voltages as follows

terminal 1 to 2
terminal 2 to 3
terminal 1 to 3

going from ground to the AC terminals might not tell you what you need to know.

do this with some load on the alternator, and report back your results

the unit is delta wound fwiw

also i looked at mine and the fan is clockwise rotation, so check your rotation
i am thinking maybe you are turning the unit backwards, if so the fan will pull some air but is optimized to pull much more air turning the right direction.

bob g

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#15)
by madlabs on Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 11:52:30 AM MST

Bob,

It ain't the alternator, methinks...

I just whipped up an RPM meter with a hall effect sensor. I ran the output through a Schmitt trigger to clean up the signal. I then programmed a uC to count the pulses, looked at it with a scope and used the frequency setting on my DVM. All of them say that I am idling at about 960 rpm and max throttle is 1500 RPM. When I turn on the alt I am getting about 40 amps and the RPM's drop to 1440. Looking at the output chart of the alt, that is about right.

Also, when idling, the rpm's were rolling a little, not a steady idle. Fuel system is of course the first suspect. I'll go poke around with that now.

BTW, the measurmnents you list above are all spot on.

Jonathan



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#16)
by bob g on Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 02:18:43 PM MST

well thankfully it looks like the problem is not with the  alternator.

when you get this thing sorted out, be sure and double check the rotation of the
alternator and see that it is spinning the way the fan needs to go.
if it isn't you should look into remounting so that it can turn the right way
or get a straight cut fan for it. i have a couple is you need one.

also you might want to look into one of the temp switches like they use in electric dryers, and epoxy it to the stator and connect the field in series with it, so that
if the alternator gets too hot it will shut down the field,
kind of crude but effect at protecting the alternator, they make them in many temp ranges,, look up wwgrainger at i think grainger.com i know they have them.

good luck

bob g

ps, i really don't like these alternator for much over 100 amps for continuous duty
unless you are in very cool climates, then maybe 120amps
i figure far better to get a consistant trouble free 100amps that it would be to
have a hotrod at 140 or more that needs additional cooling, sensor/protection, babysitting and frequent repairs.

ymmv

[ Parent ]



Re: Alternator Problems (3.00 / 0) (#17)
by madlabs on Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 04:08:06 PM MST

Looks like it was the governor. I tweaked it (boy, is it TOUCHY) and can crank out the 100 amps. In fact I can crank out a lot more, but the engine don't like it. Now back to messing with pulleys.

Thanks for all the help folks!



Alternator Problems | 17 comments (17 topical)
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