Author Topic: Matching the load  (Read 27543 times)

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SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2006, 10:09:06 PM »
Quite clever Flux. I see how this could do the job pretty well. Since I started the design phase of a larger machine, I've wanted to find a way to reduce alternator losses. Choosing a higher cut-in speed and being able to consequently reduce the coil losses seems attractive. It looks like the boost converter can fill in the low end nicely.


You mention that by doing this that the higher end matches up pretty well but I wonder if there's still room for improvement there (20-25 mph). I'm sure you've considered cascaded buck and boost converters and I wonder what your conclusions were. An interesting recent chip release by Linear Technologies, the LTC3780 controller seems to offer a rather simple way to do this. It's meant for medium power applications but does lend itself to power up-grade with larger drivers and FETs. It uses a single inductor and claims seamless transition between modes. It also claims efficiencies around 95% and uses synchronous rectification. It might be worth a look.


I look forward to more installments of the saga.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 10:09:06 PM by SamoaPower »

Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2006, 02:15:51 AM »
The biggest nuisance with the scheme I have described is that for good high wind efficiency you need to keep line losses to an absolute minimum. Ok for a short run but for a long wire run it does become an issue.


Alternator efficiency problems are the same whatever voltage you choose but the line loss is worse with low volts and buck schemes will come out better if you cant keep the line loss negligible.


For conventional machines we need line loss( it's better there than in the alternator) but once we go for high efficiency schemes loss is not needed to match the prop and the limiting factor will be how much expense you are prepared to throw at it to gain a few %.


With a 24v system with the same size of alternator as normally resistive matched, If you can avoid significant line loss and match the alternator winding at 25 mph, you should see over 70% and that is with no increase in cost. If you want much better then alternator cost goes up in big leaps for every few % you gain.


With a well designed system with boost converter at 24v you can achieve 70% from cut in to furling with the same alternator cost as the resistive match.


At 12v things are not so good, with the scheme as I have shown it, you will be boosting from about 6v and the diode losses will have a significantly greater effect. If you include the rectifiers in the boost circuit you may do a little better but then you no longer have a scheme that can work without the converter if it should fail.


Once we decide this is the way to go and stop worrying about failure then going for a buck scheme will give better efficiency on low voltages and also reduce the effect of line loss.


Starting from scratch I would not choose a buck-boost scheme, but if you have an alternator already and it was too slow in low winds and too fast in high winds then as long as it was efficient enough then a buck-boost scheme would be perfectly satisfactory.


The actual converter circuitry like everything else will be a compromise between simplicity, reliability, the bits you can get and and your ability to manage it.


Refinements such as synchronus rectification are logical moves but for our voltages they are not a big issue. A 3.3v computer supply is a different matter.


It is not realistic price wise to attempt to build alternators with upwards of 90% efficiency and if you keep conventional rectifiers I don't even think you can do it.


It's back to the greedy thing, if it's possible you want it.


Moving from an efficiency of 40% to one of 70% will make a dramatic reduction in stator loss and it seems to me to be about the most cost effective region to aim for.


If you go for motor conversions you may get a higher top end efficiency at a cost effective price but you will have to trade a bit of low wind performance as you can't recover the iron loss.


The snag with all these things is that there is no one case that will meet every individual need and even if I gave specific circuits people in various parts of the world may not be able to get the specified bits. It's not quite like magnets and wire.


All I can really hope to do is give general ideas of the various schemes . I may produce a reasonably documented boost circuit based on the ideas I have given, but even then anyone not involved in electronics may not get it to work. Ok if it works first time, but fault finding without experience and test equipment makes it a doubtful starter.


Probably general advice to steer those capable in the right direction is much more useful. .

Flux

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:15:51 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2006, 03:33:46 AM »
For anyone wanting to boost a motor conversion or a smartdrive you may like to try this way.




The inductors are the winding leakage recatance of the machine so you don't need to add anything. You will have to switch at a fairly low frequency to prevent serious iron losses and to cope with the slow bridge rectifiers (less than 5kHz at a guess).


If you want to avoid the drop of the series diode you can leave it out and replace the 3 bottom diodes of the bridge with mosfets and gate all three together. Your mosfets now have to be rated to carry full load bridge current.


I don't think you have enough inductance to do it with an air gap machine. You will have to add inductors. To do it without introducing lots of resistance the inductors will need to he high frequency ferrite ones and you will need fast diodes in the bridge and chop at a high frequency. You may need capacitors across the machine output but before the inductors to stop the high frequency producing losses in the magnet faces. I haven't tried it, it means a far less robust bridge but should be possible and you have the prospects of a lower harmonic rectifier. With clever sinewave pwn to each mosfet you could make a true low harmonic force commutated rectifier, but I think driving all fets together would be more practical.


More ideas to think about.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:33:46 AM by Flux »

oztules

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2006, 03:46:01 AM »


I'm missing something here, If we took out the series diode and replaced the lower three diodes with fets, wouldn't the "main" fet short out the battery, and as such turn rather sickly.........


What did I miss here?.............oztules

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:46:01 AM by oztules »
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Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2006, 05:28:22 AM »
Sorry. I was trying to save having to do another drawing. I should have made it clear that the 3 fets in the bridge replace the single one.

Flux
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 05:28:22 AM by Flux »

willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2006, 08:00:57 AM »
flux nice work , riviting reading !..

a few posts back you mentioned litz wire in the inductor,i have an ulterior motive for asking this question , i think you know what it is :)

What is the benefit of using litz wire in the inductor?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:00:57 AM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2006, 10:07:12 AM »
At these frequencies thick wire suffers from eddy currents in much the same way as when in the field of rotating magnets. At 30 kHz, wire thicker than about 1/2 mm is better avoided, several thin wires in hand works a lot better,


As well as eddy currents, the skin effect is also present on thick wire, current is carried on the surface but not the centre part. More thin wires have more surface and less centre.


No it is not worth the trouble for alternator coils unless the wire is over 1/8" thick.


Flux

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 10:07:12 AM by Flux »

commanda

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2006, 02:21:01 PM »
This might be an appropriate point for me to outline what I'm working on, and why. After Flux's excellent explanation, my approach might make sense to some people.


F&P smartdrive (80S) unmodified. Transmission is high voltage, less line losses.

First converter is a 3 phase boost PFC (power factor correction). Output 340 volts DC. PFC's essentially draw sine-wave current in phase with the voltage, so no nasty harmonics to waste power and heat the stator.

Second converter is a buck converter down to 24 volts to charge the batteries. The control signal for this converter is mppt derived, and also uses a tacho input signal in its algorithm to help with gusty winds.

I chose 340 volts dc because that's the rectified and filtered voltage of the Australian 240 volt mains. This means I could use modified computer power supplies, or an off-the-shelf switchmode battery charger as the second converter if I wished to.


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:21:01 PM by commanda »

SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2006, 03:34:09 PM »
Many thanks Flux.


". . . you should see over 70% and that is with no increase in cost. If you want much better then alternator cost goes up in big leaps for every few % you gain."


Maybe we should take a little closer look at the economics since for many, the wind generator is an investment. The energy we harvest has value whether we play at the game or depend on it. Using my site (10.3 mph mean) and proposed machine as an example, the energy available to the alternator from the air rotor (16'-42%) calculates to 7900 kWh per year (the integral of the energy distribution curve). If we assume a machine lifetime of 10 years, the total collectable energy could be 79,000 kWh. If we assign a value equal to the local grid energy rate (US$0.25/kWh) we have a potential harvest value of US$19,750. At an alternator efficiency 0f 70% and ignoring other losses, our relizable value is US$13,825. If we improved the alternator efficiency to 75% the energy value would be US$14,813 for a difference of US$988. What this says to me is that I could spend up to about 1000 bucks for a 5% improvement in alternator efficiency and not lose in the long term. I think it does pay to spend more (within reason) to improve efficiency even for a few percent. Of course, there are variables not accounted for in this simple analysis but I think one thing we can say with near certainy, is that energy rates will go up.


"Moving from an efficiency of 40% to one of 70% will make a dramatic reduction in stator loss and it seems to me to be about the most cost effective region to aim for."


Amen!

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:34:09 PM by SamoaPower »

oztules

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2006, 04:02:57 PM »
"If we improved the alternator efficiency to 75% the energy value would be US$14,813 for a difference of US$988. What this says to me is that I could spend up to about 1000 bucks for a 5% improvement in alternator efficiency and not lose in the long term"


Whilst this does hold water, another important consideration from the "world according to Flux" is that nothing quite defines the power available to us more than the swept area of the mill .........or words to that effect. A thousand bucks could buy you a rotor size increase which would send the 5% increase you mention into the land of insignificance.


So it depends if bang for buck or perfection of energy capture is the measuring stick.

Flux has defined a procedure to improve from 40% to 70 % with a scheme involving very little outlay to an economicaly justafiable best point.   Beyond that point,it would seem that power electronics and other complexities start to play against perceived gains.


From that point on, it is probably better to spend your extra power dollars on increasing the size, and still applying Flux's modifications.


However, if it more a personal vendetta against system losses, then thats a different parameter to measure success by.


one is for fun/pleasure/curiosity, the other is pragmatic bang for buck....I think i'm somewhere in between, so i'll shoot for 60-70%,......... or a  bigger rotor if I want more  power over that.


On a different note, have you found anything useful yet from the asymetric windings on your air403's yet.


.........oztules

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 04:02:57 PM by oztules »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2006, 06:08:12 PM »
Thanks for the comments oztules.


"Whilst this does hold water, another important consideration from the "world according to Flux" is that nothing quite defines the power available to us more than the swept area of the mill .........or words to that effect. A thousand bucks could buy you a rotor size increase which would send the 5% increase you mention into the land of insignificance."


While I certainly don't disagree with you or Flux on this point, I think you reach a point with machine size (?) where the additional associated difficulties and problems tend to outweigh the benefits. Increasing the rotor diameter by 25% of a 8' machine to 10' is trival compared to the same increase for a 16' rotor to 20'. For a small degree improvement, you're right. But, take the guy who has a modest size convential machine who wishes to improve his energy harvest. Does he haul it down, make new blades and perhaps a new stator and put it back up only to find that the match is worse? Or, would it be better to employ electronics to do the job? And, if he spent somewhat more on the electronics to get another 5%, would it be worthwhile? I think so.


I admit to having a few biases. I have some components of my proposed machine which I want to utilize. I also have a 'thing' about efficiency. A more 'elegant' solution to a problem is something I find much more satisfying than applying a 'brute force' approach (and possibly burning up stators). I think you had me pegged pretty well, oztules. I also try to avoid strenuous physical activity where possible. Running machines up and down the tower isn't my idea of fun. If I can play with the electronics in the comfort of my air conditioned shop (this is the tropics - I don't have to contend with that funny, cold, white stuff), I'm happy.


Re: Air machines. The tests so far have generated more questions than answers. Tests into a resistive load showed about a 30% improvement for a star connection over the original configuration. However, the same tests into a battery showed just the opposite. Until I can explain this, it's on hold but still on my long 'to do' list.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 06:08:12 PM by SamoaPower »

Gary D

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2006, 09:15:40 PM »
Very informative Flux. I don't have the expertise to duplicate your circuits, but do have friends that can.

 A few thoughts though. If you do upgrade from 12 to 24 volts, and get the same amps at a higher voltage,at a slightly higher cutin... you need to double your battery bank size to allow it to accept the same/more current as it matches the power curve better. This wasn't mentioned, however it's an added cost(no free lunch). And/or you must have an automated higher wattage dump ready to get rid of the excess, which is a great thing for water/space heating in winter as winds get higher(especially on larger machines). Also, on the larger machines I do wonder how they would handle the increased rpm's(or if that's a non issue). Thought possibly some might ponder some of this(or maybe/probably I'm just a little "off").

 Nice presentation, hope to see more!  Gary D.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 09:15:40 PM by Gary D »

Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2006, 01:21:57 AM »
Gary

You raise a significant issue. The present machines are quite slow even when reasonably matched to avoid bad stall. Large ones such as Dan's 17 ft are basically stall limited from about 10 mph upwards. They are as a consequence rather docile and quiet.


To operate on the peak of the power curve they will have to run faster. Most commercial machines are fast and noisy to keep costs low. Higher speeds will result in increased noise but if you start with reasonable tsr and keep it at design tsr at top speed I haven't found the noise to be an issue, but that is only with machines up to 10 ft. Some of the forces on the machine increase rather a lot with speed and it may be that a 17ft machine operating at optimum speed may need to be more strongly constructed, but I am not sure this is beyond our means but it needs thinking about.


As I said previously, with the right converter you have the option to bring the machine back into stall and for a bigger machine I would be very tempted to let it track the wind speed to perhaps 20 mph and then stall it out in the high winds so that it ran at low aerodynamic efficiency but high electrical efficiency so that it would still produce modest power at a low speed with no danger of burn out and much less stress on things generally.  The greedy will have to live with the frantic high speed and stresses to capture enormous power in the 30 mph range.

Flux

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 01:21:57 AM by Flux »

Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2006, 02:07:12 AM »
Amanda

From the look of the F & P it must have a lot of leakage reactance. I think that keeping volts up and using the pfc rectifier should let you extract a lot more power from it than loading it at constant voltage.


Keep up the good work.

Flux

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 02:07:12 AM by Flux »

willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2006, 10:57:41 AM »
Flux are there any dissadvanteges to using a buck boost , if your volts need boosting , but you have plenty of available current in your alt.?

for example say a person wants to go from 12 to 24 volts or from 12 to 48V ?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 10:57:41 AM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2006, 01:56:37 PM »
Sorry I don't follow the question. Any voltage conversion involves losses. If you gain more from the other factors than you loose in loss it must be an advantage.


If you have a 12v system and you decide to uprate it to 48v then if you do it right you will gain. If you charge a 12v battery and boost this to charge a 48v battery you will have worse results than using power at 12v because you have done nothing to improve the 12v system and you have added another loss.

Flux

« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 01:56:37 PM by Flux »

willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2006, 03:16:23 PM »
i'm talking about a gen that has low volts output but lots of current..at say 155 rpm..
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 03:16:23 PM by willib »
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Flux

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2006, 12:39:41 AM »
yes that is what this is about. For the scheme as I proposed it the machine would be slow enough to work with the system voltage in high winds but need boosting for the low winds.


If your machine is too slow even in high winds you can boost through the complete speed range but the converter now needs to handle all the power.


Not a point I would start from, but if you were in that situation it would still work but at lower efficiency than choosing a machine with more volts.


You still have the advantage of tracking wind speed.

Flux

« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 12:39:41 AM by Flux »

SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2006, 02:06:03 PM »
Flux,


I've taken some of your ideas and plugged them into my design spreadsheet for my proposed 16' machine and run through a number of iterations in an attempt to optimize parameters. I must say that your contentions are confirmed quite nicely except for one point.


You indicated that to achieve efficiences of better than 70% or so is going to require a lot more in alternator size and cost. Although I agree that a larger one is necessary, the degree of increase is tolerable. In my example, it required a magnet rotor diameter change of 1.5", from 18 to 19.5" (but same magnets) to give an indicated efficiency of 82% at 125 RPM (16 mph) and 73% at 160 RPM (20 mph) with cut-in set at 95 RPM (12 mph).  Not a major size/cost factor. This change was indicated to accomodate the necessary stator coil changes. These changes also resulted in an ouput improvement of about 20% to 1.2kW to the batteries (line loss accounted for) at 16 mph, my target speed.


The real surprise was the sensitivity to very small changes in coil DC resistance. One milliOhm change per coil in this 16/12 12 volt machine changed the curves dramatically. This set me on a course to look closely at coil design. This effort resulted in coils of 19 turns of 7 in hand #14, a fair departure from the usual seen here. It's going to take an interesting winding jig to do these well. The DC resistance of these are a calculated 6.9 milliOhm each.


Per your suggestion, I've decided to curb the greed factor and limit the machine at 20 mph. This would be easily done by the pitch servo. The pitch control curve would be constant TSR below 20 mph, constant speed between 20 and 25 mph (2.1 kW out) and feathering shutdown at 25.


I want to thank you again Flux for getting me off the traditional mind-set and on an improved course. I'm much happier with the axial flux machine now.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:06:03 PM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2006, 02:32:31 PM »
i've wound a coil with less than 0.005833 ohms , single strand #10 wire..

with 23 turns :)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 02:32:31 PM by willib »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2006, 03:35:43 PM »
Must be a mighty small coil since that indicates an average turn length of about three inches or a total coil wire length of 5.8 feet. #10 solid is about one milliOhm per foot.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 03:35:43 PM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2006, 04:10:36 PM »
yep 5.8 feet is real close

its 1.75 dia x .510  with a 7/8" hole :-)

but as thick as the wire is (.106 thick enamel)it has to be easier to wind than seven in hand #14 wire. no?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 04:10:36 PM by willib »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2006, 05:41:43 PM »
Aah, I see. Yes indeed, small coils.


My latest coil design is about 6.5" x 3.6" outside and has an average turn length of 13" (slighty tapered) - about 20.6' total length for 19 turns.


I think winding #10 to efficiently use the available space would be much more difficult. I'd need more like #5.5 to do it with a single conductor. Also, there are eddy current losses to consider with a single larger wire.


Seven in hand #14 allows this coil to be wound with a single turn per layer resulting in a coil that's still only .5" thick and space efficient.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 05:41:43 PM by SamoaPower »

oztules

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2006, 05:48:09 PM »
You are right about the departure from the norm...


how many coils/phase for what voltage?


maybe time to split some starter motors and get the ribbon wire they use in the field coils.


........oztules

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 05:48:09 PM by oztules »
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willib

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2006, 06:38:45 PM »
litz wire comes in some  very thick versions.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 06:38:45 PM by willib »
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oztules

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2006, 07:26:40 PM »
I was thinking more for coil winding and packing. The ribbon wire would be rectangular wire, 12mm by 1.6mm for 19 turns would use 100% of the winding space less insulating thickness.Samoapower is an efficiency wizard, maybe that would help in this pursuit. The thin cross section would be no worse for  eddy currents, but the 12mm width would aid in  current carrying, and reduce waste packing /air space, and be the same size coils physically (hopefully with lower resistance than 7 in hand #14)


.........oztules

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 07:26:40 PM by oztules »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2006, 09:54:17 PM »
These are for a 16/12 12 volt machine so four coils/phase.


Re: strap conductors

DanB did some tests using wide conductors - didn't work out well.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/5/10/151616/052


Think I'll stick with round.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2006, 09:54:17 PM by SamoaPower »

DanB

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2006, 10:19:39 AM »
if its an axial flux airgap machine then the ribbon wire is probably not a good idea based upon our experiences building scotties little diesel last year.  Not all flux is in a perfectly straight line from magnet to magnet and in my experience, using fairly thin ribbon wire (But 1/2" thick) - eddy currents are a killer.  Our rpm were high - but the destruction from eddy currents was amazing and it happened quickly.  I think that leaves us with our best bet being round wire in the axial flux machines with big airgaps.  I could be misunderstanding what your all talking about though...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 10:19:39 AM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

oztules

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2006, 03:46:45 PM »
No Danb,


I'm thinking you are understanding well enough to keep us out of trouble, and since I have availed myself of your story regarding the unhappy demise of Scotties gennie, I I'm understanding that  my suggestion should have been /has been relegated to the dustbin.


Samoapower was on it straight away fortunately, as I was going to pillage some starter motors and do some testing myself until I read your tale of woe....no more dreaming of thickwire here.... (lets see a hundred in hand of spiderweb should do it.)


I was very surprised with the results, and they were contrary to what I would have expected at these frequencies.


But nothing proves/disproves theory like real world experiment, and luckily for the rest of us, you have done this.


Thanks for your experimentation, you have my and others gratitude for this (this includes a dozen startermotors I had recovered from the tip for this purpose, they can live on in one peace now)


Well done as usual................oztules

« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 03:46:45 PM by oztules »
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seanchan00

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2006, 09:41:41 AM »
Hi Flux,


Due to poor wind, my windmill is currently generating less than 11V worth of power 70% of the time, and i can't use this to charge my 12V batteries. I'm considering using your Boost circuit above to boost my output voltage to above 13V. However, i do not know what Capacitor and Inductor values to use, or what type of Mosfet to use. Can you please advise?


also, would it be necessary to put in a cut-off feature in my boost circuit when the wind picks up?


Regards,

SeanChan

« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 09:41:41 AM by seanchan00 »

Boondocker

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Re: Matching the load
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2006, 05:58:49 PM »
Thanks for this post.


You explain "increase line resistance to lower the slope".   How is line reistance increased?  Coil design?


Thanks


Duane

« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 05:58:49 PM by Boondocker »