Author Topic: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.  (Read 2147 times)

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Jerry

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Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« on: January 16, 2006, 03:57:20 AM »
I have a couple plumber freinds. They call once a month or so for dumpster diving in there old motor recycle bins.


Garbage disposal motor come in 3 types. Most plentyfull are the AC induction (Garbogen).


Second most plentyfull are the DC PM type. Then the ac dc type with brushes (very rare).


Here is the PM type. It is exactly like the tredmill motor accept it has bushing not bearings, it has a very short, small threded shaft and if you remove the food choper part there is no end cap left on that end.


Here is the name plate specs.


.


You can see the fullwave bridge to the left inside the motor case.


This is how big or small this littel bridge is.


I'll be using 9 of the littel .75"X.75" bridges in my 8" dual rotor.


They must have a very good surge rateing cause the motors draw much higher then 6 amps at startup. There voltage rateing must be fairly high cause there conected directly to the ac line.


All 9 at 6 amps each will be 54 amps handleing. I know this littel genny will never do that much power. They'll be mounted on the aluminum 10" diameter X 1/4" thick stator support plate. A very good heatsink.


                           JK TAS Jerry


 

« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 03:57:20 AM by (unknown) »

terry5732

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2006, 10:41:56 PM »
I think overkill in the diodes is good and cuts down on loss. Although it takes maybe a volt to fire each, it isn't power per se. But the heat you feel when you don't have enough is power lost. I don't think you will get a measureable difference in voltage drop between using one or using say a dozen in parallel. But they inherently must conduct more easily.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2006, 10:41:56 PM by terry5732 »

FrankG

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2006, 02:35:48 PM »
Say Again???


Bridge Rectifiers in parallel? I'm trying to visualize it... like truely parallel, all the +ve & -ve...


I can't see it not working, just never thought about it I guess...

« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 02:35:48 PM by FrankG »

richhagen

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2006, 07:43:21 PM »
It works and has been commonly used here.  The voltage drop of the bridge is not a constant with respect to current, so the power winds up being spread out amongst the rectifiers.  I would not try to run 54 amps through 9 of 6 amp bridges paralleled though, I would de-rate them a little as the current split among them will likely not be perfectly even.  I would bet it would be good for at least 40 amps though.  Rich
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 07:43:21 PM by richhagen »
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Jerry

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 11:22:19 PM »
There will be 9 of these littel bridges. One wired to each coil descreatly. Then all the DC outputs perelelled. I did this on the Lowes alt and it works great.


All the small diferances between coils and diodes no longer makes any diferance.


Theres a discusion going on here now about this very same thing and without these guys realizing it there star point commin is equivelant to what I'm doing and Ed says its more eficient.


Thats the point I've been trying to make all along but I gues I havn't articulated it well.


I'll try another disertation on that subject in a week or so.


                      JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 11:22:19 PM by Jerry »

hiker

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2006, 12:29:57 AM »
hmm-so thats the reason you wind them with so many turns..

say one coil is putting out 30volts[whatever rpm.]--that will be the output of the entire alt.

sence all coils are hooked in parelle after being wired to a rect.

so is it still a 3 phase alt? just trying to figure it out  jerry..
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 12:29:57 AM by hiker »
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Jerry

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 10:50:08 PM »
Hi hiler.


Yep its still 3 phase. The problem with normal star is being addressed in that other post.


But just a thought or 2 on the subject. I'll present a more indepth disusion at a latter date.


Lets take a simple alt for example. Say 3 coils 4 magnets. Each coil is producing voltage.


However when coil #1 is at its peak voltage swing #2 and # 3 are not. They can't because they are 120 degrees ahead or behind.


Star basicly wires all 3 coils in sires. If you remove one coil you can see this very plainly. There is a star or comon point where the 3 phase have a comon conection.


Nothing else is conected to this point. Ac out put is conected to the other ends of the coils. There is ac potential between these 3 conections. However it is not the peak voltage of the coils added in sires because coil #1 voltage may be at 10v at the same time coil #2 and 3 are at 8 volt or so. they have not reach there peak yet.


So the problem is you'll never be able to harvest all 3 coils peak voltage because there wired in sires with another coil 2 volts shy.


This is not the most eficient use of coils or magnet or the blade for that matter.


When the 3 phase are treated as seperate power sources and not degraded by being wired in sires with a out of phase helper then there power is at maximum for all coils.


No power waisted in missmatch. But yet all phases contribute. If this arangement is pursuide much more eficient alts will result.


Ed has allready discuvered this I have too. People need to get there head around this and quit waisting power.


I'll try to explain it in more detail latter with better examples and details.


I've done a few expiriments and it is a fact as Ed and I have stated.


PS one example. We were in an older biulding 7 years ago. The store was wire with 3 phase ac utility power.


This power is refered to as 208 volts 3 phase. Ofcourse there is also your standard 120 volts ac present.


There were 3 heavy insulated wires comming into the building plus a large ground or nutral.


At the ac breaker panel you could measure between nutral and any of the 3 hots and get a reading of 124 volts. Now in single phase you would see 248 volts between the 2 hots for 220. But not so in the 3 phase power. Measure between any 2 hots and you get 208v Thats why they call it 208v. Its not because the voltage is less it because one hot line is not totaly in phase with the other. its out of phase enough so that line 2 is trailing in peack voltage at the time your trying to use it. When 2 does reach it peak #1 is no trailing or out of phase with #2 and the same relation ship with #3..


With 3 phase the #1, #2 and #3 peaks will never be at the same time.


OK off my soap box. LOL.


                         JK TAS Jerry


                           

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 10:50:08 PM by Jerry »

Jerry

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 10:51:49 PM »
Hiker sorry about the hiler thing. I'm real tiered.


                    JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 10:51:49 PM by Jerry »

Jerry

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 10:55:44 PM »
However I did get the rotors finished tonight. That is if I decide not to paint them.


The epoxi is drying as we speek. I'm trying some Loctite marine 50 minut water proof epoxi.


A littel progress here and there.


                         JK TAS Jerry

« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 10:55:44 PM by Jerry »

hiker

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 03:27:20 AM »
hey jerry..

had a few brews-its late-seems like your alts are multable single phase-each coil has its own rect!    why not give each coil its own mag--like single phase--should get more amps..can"t really see see how  a 9 and 12 will work for you. mismatched..

your not doing a 3 phase setup-with three coils in series times three..so why are you using

9 and 12 setup for 3 phase when its not a true 3 phase setup--
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 03:27:20 AM by hiker »
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Gary D

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 07:32:52 AM »
Jerry, I understand your setup. You could go to 5 phase easily since you have the rectifiers up on the genny anyway. 5 coils per 6 magnets...Similar to Hughs plans, but with full voltage on each coil. You would have to cast the whole stator that way, coils touching and all, so more resin costs? Always enjoy your alternate thinking/ experimenting! Gary D.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 07:32:52 AM by Gary D »

electrondady1

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2006, 08:59:31 AM »
jerry, i've been following your various projects right along . you've got a way of looking at stuff differently , reminds me of ed lenz. if i follow you thinking, your saying in a typical 3 phase star the peak voltage from any one phase is runing through another phase which is not at peak voltage . but your paying the price of doubling the resistance through that second phase. so the next step would be like hiker has said and run each phase through it own bridge. by runing a bridge for each coil as you intend to do and parelleling the output you get the voltage of one coil x 1.4  but the resistance of one coil/ over the number of coils in each phase. by doing it this way you should get more amps . and any cancelation due to inaccurate mag rotors and stator placement would be kept to a minimum. have i got it? or is there something i'm missing?  
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 08:59:31 AM by electrondady1 »

hiker

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2006, 06:52:26 PM »
thanks for the info jerry--

disregard that last post i made.........
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 06:52:26 PM by hiker »
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hvirtane

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Re: Scrounging parts for the 8" dual rotor.
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 02:40:20 AM »
I think that in practice

the best power you will

get by rectifying all

the phases separately.

Partly, because your coils

are never perfect.


That opinion is also

in the book by Alfred Forbes,

based on his measurements.


But on the contrary, I discussed

with the great specialist

Mr. Kragten from Netherlands,

and he said based on his measurements,

the best power was with 'delta'.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 02:40:20 AM by hvirtane »