Author Topic: Low speed hydro  (Read 9705 times)

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kitno455

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2006, 08:43:41 AM »
i got a thought, cause i am an automotive type guy- if you take all the guts out of the front half of most automatic transmissions, you could fit a pretty good sized motor in there and seal the front pump mounting flange. leave out the valve body, and put a flat plate on the bottom. you would have to hold the ring/carriers to get compound low, but you should be able to fill the thing half-way with oil and mount it on the shore. long drive shaft to the plunge joint allows for rise and fall.


the lowest first gear i remember off hand is gm th700r4, with 3.08?


allan

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 08:43:41 AM by kitno455 »

whatsnext

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2006, 08:53:32 AM »
I didn't say any of those things just that you'll not get much usable power from a design like this. I really don't care what you want to build but if you take the time to do a little research you'll see that waterwheel technology has been pretty well thought out so there is really no need to try to reinvent one.

Have fun, John..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 08:53:32 AM by whatsnext »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2006, 09:09:07 AM »
Hello (again) Ozutles!


If I could find all my stratch papers they'd show you I've spent hours/days ..   buckets and buckets of time playing with math and the formulas.

With that said another little story comes to mind.


While sitting in on a high level meeting (subject was wheather to spend big bucks making some changes to a few production machines).   There were a few low level eng. techs (who came up with the changes.. and ran "tests") reporting to the group.

Towards the end of the meeting the "Big Cheese" asked the head eng. if he thought the money should be spent.   Now I should point out that this same eng wasn't HIMSELF there during the testing, nor do I think any of the changes were his idea.

His reply was "Tell me what you want,  and I'll go write up a report.  I'll make the numbers "Show Just What You Want".


I found that I was doing the same thing with my waterwheel numbers.

A guess for this or that number and the answer would be XXX

If I'd take that same number I GUESSED at..   and guess it just a bit different..   and would you beleive...  the answer would be WAY WAY different.


So my high tech approach going to end up...    Build it and damn the numbers

(This will be for the water wheel)    I've not given up on the math/numbers for the genny (yet).


Now..  back to that other GOOD OLD STUFF

TUBES!   I too was fooled by the numbers and volume of SOLIDSTATE audio amps.

wow what power!   almost no THD.    didn't break your back lifting the amps up onto the bench..   almost NO heat!  no worries about keeping the bias set!  

Back in the late 60's there wasn't any concern about power consumtion...

BUt   BUT there was always something missing.   But boy oh boy!   just crank it up!  After a  few years of SolidState...   (yeah I owned plenty) I started swinging back to tubes.     One of the biggest events for me..  was while working in a high end audio store (I was the service dude)  I took in an old "The Fisher" stereo amps for repair (the guy cried on my shoulder..  and then spent big bucks in the store, so..)


So..  breathing life back into the amp (tell ya the truth..I really did want to try to fix it...  cause I always had a {can I say hardon here?} for the old fisher stuff.

once I was happy with it on the serivce bench I took it out to one of the listening rooms.    Where I hooked it up to our "switcher"  I did a few "BLIND" listening tests with a few of our salesmen (all full of ears and themselves)

That ole fisher had about 22 watts rms THD was close to 1%.   BUT...  everyone picked the fisher as the nicest sound..    against current (back then) state of the art..   205 watt per .01 thd Phase 400.

6bl8 can't say I've heard that one, not listed in my old rca tube manual..   but rca didn't list everything.

OZtules..  there are lots of tubes and tube people out there/here.  

If you still love your ax7s..  Spend some time/effort/cash..  and get yourself some tube amps..   and let the joy come to your ears!


Others here may say "now what does that have to do with RE?"  

NOTHING!   it's my thread..  and I can do what I want!   L


and if there are any one out there that want to talk..  stereos..  please come forth!

With what I said about tubes and solid state...  

I'll take a moment to mention... not all solidstate sucks.  as a matter of fact there are a few DIY ss amps out there.   CHEAP.. easy to build..  and can sound VERY NICE.  


Enjoy music Oztules!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 09:09:07 AM by 12AX7 »

pepa

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2006, 09:16:21 AM »
i would like to have a large water wheel where i could set and watch it work, i have been in several working gris mills (a long time ago) and was always amazed at the power that they produced. build your wheel and post lots of pictures. if you cannot get the power from it, you can add another less noticable type of power generating equipment as the stream will continue to flow as nature intented, down hill. a lower unit from an old outboard motor lowered under the surface with some type of impeller attached and the upper shaft through a pipe and extended above highwater would give you a lot of posibilities for generating power. have fun, pepa
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 09:16:21 AM by pepa »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2006, 09:34:34 AM »
Hello Zubbly!


"cut in"..    another question in my head has been..

if its going to turn at almost a constant speed (compared to a windmill) Can't the genny be made so that at it's speed (yeah, thats TBD at this time) would be more eff. at this one speed than one that needs to "put out"  at some huge variations?


I've spent too much time..  collected too much STUFF  "not" to build the water wheel.  and as I've said in the past..   I hope the waterwheel will be a "feature" in my yard.  To sit back,  drink a beer or two..   and enjoy watching it go roundnround.  can't do that with something under the water L.


and...  if it does turn at an "almost" constant speed..could I dream/hope..  to run some "items"  directly off of it's output?  Yes,  I do plan on ending up with a "storage device"  and inverter/charger.  


I know that in the best of plans "the" question of all questions is...  What do you want to power?   I'm afraid I'll have to say at this time... TBD!  

or..   my answer to the question would be a question...   "what can I power?"


Heck,  at this time I still have a fall back plan..   let the wheel pump water to my house (exchanger in furnace) and back out.   Depending on the weather..   Cooling in the summer..   heat in the fall.   ect...


The well pump...   I'll have to keep my eyes open,  but I don't think too many "good" but used units are available.  The cost to replace a deep well pump..

Why replace it... if it's still working?  


On the other hand,   I see plenty of ac motors tossed out cause their old..  or being "updated"   or..   they "got the wrong one".


How about converting an 40 hp leeson?


Zubby,  we can't make it too fun else theyd charge us TAX!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 09:34:34 AM by 12AX7 »

sahlein

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2006, 11:50:38 AM »
I would recommend a toothed-belt drive over a gearbox Any Day both for efficiency and economy.  Arthur vanKaick sent us a motor/alternator setup for a frequency converter that used a gearbox to speed up from 240hz to 320hz and it was nothing but trouble!  MANY cooling, lube and alignment problems.  We wound up using a "hombrewed" (in our shop)  HTD drive belt and sprockets 90mm wide..... End of problems for many years!  NO lube or cooling problems EVER!

Motor was 50hp 3 phase spinning a 250KVA alternator putting out about 500 volts at 320hz which was stepped down to 9-11 volts at about 4-4500 amps for welding current in a can making machine used for Continental Can Co.

We used a Lambda constant current lab-grade power supply for the exciter current.

The weld power was switched by a Semi-Kron SCR package that was about 2X3X3 inches in size with integral water cooling.  Switching in this case was done at the 500 volt level before the step-down transformer.

The high-current low voltage rotating joint was mercury filled and also water cooled.

The rotating joint was the weak link... they lasted about 6 months running 24/7.

I could always tell when one blew its guts because the mercury vapor in the air would make the fillings in my teeth "tingle".

One would think that with the mercury vapor exposure, the lead-based paint I ate as a child, growing up in an auto body repair shop that used lead-based solder before there was Bondo and 13 years of taking care of Nukes in the Army that I would be a prime candidate for "heavy-metal" poisoning but, my Doc tells me that I will probably live to be 95 years old!

The "secret" is to.... Eat your veggies!

Joe S.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 11:50:38 AM by sahlein »

zubbly

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2006, 12:26:57 PM »
12AX7,


again, my suggestions are only that, and need further investigations. a 40hp conversion?, my largest has been a 7.5hp. can it be done?, absolutely.


first however i suggest you really nail down exactly what it is you want. perhaps we can help further then.  


zubbly

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 12:26:57 PM by zubbly »

whatsnext

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2006, 01:21:41 PM »
Zubbly, It could also be suggested that he simply built his wheel, put it into place, see how much power it's capable of producing, and then decide what sort of alt is called for. This poster seems, to me at least, to have the concepts of force and power confused but that's true of a lot of people here.

John...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 01:21:41 PM by whatsnext »

oztules

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2006, 03:08:43 PM »
I have a fairly solid suspicion that this poster will build a water wheel because he can and because he wants to. and because he is going to.


He does not seem to be following a purist line of best performance or worlds best practice at extracting the last erg of energy from the available resource.


Instead 12ax7 seems to just want to dabble with whatever his wheel will do, and then see how he can improve on that. I suspect that he wants to have a grip on alternatives available to him, the pro's and con's of each, and then do whatever takes his imagination.......and why not.....anyone still using valves is doing what they want when they want, how they want. If power were a real problem, then he would use a crystal set and ear phones. But my guess is he would build a power station just to power the stereo, hang the expense. Some things are just not worth the compromise.


and his final out is that no matter what does or doesn't work, he still has an astheticly pleasing water wheel to reflect upon, drink beer with, and watch it go round and round.....damn hard to argue against really. I think he may be having way too mutch fun.


Here I can see the journey is far more important than the destination.


..........oztules

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 03:08:43 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2006, 11:21:43 PM »
Evening Zubbly!   (here at least)


L   don't worry!     be happy!


I sure DO understand whats going on (here).

and to make sure we're all on the same page.

I am asking you for SUGGESTIONS...  IDEAS... OPINONS..  yeahs..  nahs...  thumbs up..  down... and ya sure can free to just "shrug your shoulders".

Just cause I read about in on the internet, doesn't mean I'm goin go change my brake fluid every 1000 miles.


If I fail...   I'll still have a bank to sit along side,  and beer to drink.


Did I mention..   the trout?  a few small mouth bass...   yeah,  some carp too.   But I do my damnest to keep em cleaned out.


and the 40hp thing,  I'm not asking so much as if it will work, more like... should I?


I know it's premature to be asking these kinda questions,  there are too many "unknowns" (tbd's).


I've posted else where...    a gens rotor the size of a 55 gal. drum?

{I'm sorry about the gal. thing...  spent many a day in Cnd... }


but anyhow...    a rotor that big...  (neos of course)..   and then...  {gettin kinda far out here..}    having the stator on a "swinging door"..   like on a BBQ..

[drum shape.. mounted horz...  split in half...   hinged]  open and reposition your coils?


Honest!  cross my heart!   I only had one beer!

oh!  hey!  ya could use "jacking bolts"..   to adjust the air gap..


But anyhow..   backing up a bit...   ya recall my last post?   tonite while telling the cranker (the friend)..about your Well Pump post...   He said.. "hey,  I've still got the one that they pulled out... they told me it might have been hit by lightning {{{at 300ft}}}"    DAMN   I just hate that when things like that fall into your lap!!!!  But...  I'm going to stay focused on the water wheel...    at least till the water starts to get hard again...   next winter!   L

Please keep in touch!!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 11:21:43 PM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2006, 11:54:18 PM »
Hello Sahlein


"efficiency... economy....  240hz to 320hz   50hp  250kva  water cooled switch and MERCURY"    You sure caught my eye!


about the efficiency thing...  YES!   YOU are right!   a Cogged belt is amost as good as sliced bread.   but then...  there's that economy thing..I've got a 30.5in shive (why don't they call em pullys?)  it's dual Vee.  said before it's 75.5lbs..

it's ... on the pile of "stuff".

what I don't have is a nice LARGE cogged pully,  nor the belt to match. if I did..L

240 to 320 HZ gearing..   not sure what that means in terms How fast the gears are spinning.    

I suppose I really should clear my throat a bit.  I did say 1 to 10 or 1 to 20 gear boxes..   but I'm not going that route.   I'm not really a "tree hugger"..  but...I'll not use ANYTHING that might harm the river.    I know there are plenty of "food grade oils" out there...    but can't trust myself to keep the seals maintained...  and the oil changed.   (yeah,,,   I know..  the bearings are going to need somesort of help...   When she Squeals like a pig..  the boss will let me know it's time to get the grease gun out...)

50 hp..250kva  water cooled switches..    yikes  

I'm thinking that a welder is a pretty EXTREAM load to switch,  (let alone several, perhaps more than one at the same time)  Switching that kinda load on a gear box?   NEVER!  

but ...  butt!  that's not what I'm planning on!  maybe 250KVAs (ya can't guess what it takes to run a pair of 811's)


"Mercury"..   I think I've got some of that flowing in me...that's another story.

dumped plenty of it. Still have several pounds.   Still trying to think of a project to use it in!


Sure have plenty of it in my fillings!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 11:54:18 PM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2006, 12:25:55 AM »
Good morning Oztules!


just clicked past 1am here...

"fairly solid suspicion"   SEE?  there ya go!   proof postitive that Solid (state) has a place in our world..     how silly "fairly tubed (or valved) suspicion" would sound!


Yes,  and thank you.


I know that there must be a few that are reading these posts and wondering "is this guy for real?"    

and for now..   who knows?    there are a few "cards" that might be tucked away someplace...


30+ years at the "school of hard knocks"  (tubes was the early stuff.)  they talk of power... voltage .. amps..ergs..micros..millies..  henrys..  delta kilo romeo.."oops".

analog digital..  on off.. mostly on..  kinda off.  Hydro pnemactic..  hot cold..

High pressre steam boilers (gas oil and fired by sawdust)  

100hp air compressors...  high pressure cold water return pumps..   (one of the neatest...  dad and I .. firing up a steam driven water pump....  doing the work of two 80 hp elect pumps.  ...  dad laying acrossed it..  yelling at me to keep spritzing oil on the shafts... that pump handn't run in 50 years )

transformers...   coils.. caps... Xsub L is equal to twopifl    bad boys rape our young girls but violet gives willingly.. get some now..     susan can't tell oscar had a hunk of ass...    

oh..  and painting too.    but I really suck at that!


Some day I'll have to go on about why digital sucks when it comes to music!  (yeah yeah yeah...  I listen to cds too the pop snap and skipping of 331/3 drive me to drink!)

oh..  there were at least another 20 before the 30... (years) but they don't count!


Again,  I'd like to thank you..   said it so much better than I chould have.   nicer too!  

Keep in touch!    and ...   go out and DO tubes!

« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 12:25:55 AM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2006, 12:41:13 AM »
Oh!   I forgot...

about the Journey thing...  Spent close to 20 years "field service"  many many hours on planes..  samsonite was my life


the best part of any journey...  not the destination.   it's getting home again.

12ax7

« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 12:41:13 AM by 12AX7 »

sahlein

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2006, 02:29:17 PM »
With regards to bearing lubrication.... One can get these little plastic "do-dads" that hold grease and use a "AA" cell to produce a reaction that generates Nitrogen to continually force grease into a bearing.  I used those on the Motor/Alternators which were mounted about 14 feet off the floor on platforms.  We only had to replenish the grease every 6-8 months or so.

Grease???.... Mobil 28 is the best stuff going!  It is rated H-2 for occaisional contact with food handling machinery.  It was designed as wheel-bearing grease for fighter aircraft and one could probably use it for salad oil without fear of poisoning ones self.  It is a synthetic oil thickened with bentonite clay.

Do a "Google Search" for McMaster-Carr.  I used them as a supply house for about 25 years.  If they don't have it... You don't Need it!

You want the belts with the ROUND teeth...

I too have had some experience with Tubes!  I know about 811's and 803's.

Anybody remember CK722 transistors???

Joe S.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 02:29:17 PM by sahlein »

oztules

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2006, 09:10:06 PM »
Well, was cruising the net and stumbled upon this


http://www.vacuumtube.com/vintage2.html


I do recall talking about some 12ax7 action driving an 807. Lovely little stereo amp. Can't believe the dollars they want for this...........


I had not considered that I would ever bother to build another valve amp for the last few decades, but i'm actually starting to scratch and itch a little bit...


My mind is turning to the toroids I have out in the shed, pondering the design in my head, can still remember the pin outs on a few tubes......the damn thing is , I didn't bring my box of old valves over to the island with me.  


It was a huge box that I got from the local tv channel in the  mid 60's. They replaced their tubes on rotation every so many months. They just threw them out.

I knew the tech from the station through the amateur radio club, and he took me up there and filled the boot of dads (VK3AKT) car with them. They were happy to get rid of them.  I was just a kid with eyes 6 feet wide.


Well most I'd never heard of before, but there were mountains of em. Literature was scarce up in the desert country where I came from, and so I got to looking inside of the tube, drawing out the connections from the grids to the pins, and try all the different ones out as A class amps, pre-amps and so forth....The ones that came to the top of the heap were 12ax7, 12at7 6aq5 6gv8 6bq5 6bl8......lots of other favourites, but these were the ones i turned into countless amplifiers, shortwave radios, even a few successful superhets. regenerative recievers, trftuners.....the list goes on.  (you know, my favourite regen set was a single valve 12at7 from a design called "little jim" 1 triode for the regen, second for the af out.)

I reckon I got more belts of 400v than anyone else on earth, as the designs were stretched over the bench along with ratsnest wiring and poor solder joints. Don't know how I made it out of boyhood


One day I got hold of the rca recieving tube manual, it became my "bible". There were more thumbed through dog eared pages on that book than any other I owned.


Now and again we'd go to the rubbish tip and get an old tv reciever, or radio. Power transformers and audio transformers were  the kind of find to make a small boys eyes sparkle... I think I was weird.... any how, that link bought it all back for me, the bent fingers making the countless chassis out of tinplate, drilling out valve holes, trying to makem look "professional".......What I wouldn't have done to have my brake press, milling machine and guillotine then.....


Well 12AX7, I'd better not  ramble on any more. Check the link,may bring back some fond ones


..........oztules isolated out in the ocean without any power tetrodes, at least I still got me twin triodes

« Last Edit: March 04, 2006, 09:10:06 PM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2006, 12:02:34 AM »
Oztules & Tubes!


I must say,  if it wasn't for been Vacuume Tube Valley..   The 807 driven by ax7?   L  I would have thought you were setting me up!

and my fist peek at it..   "EYES WIDE OPEN"!    {now I'm wondering if someone already owns one!}


I never would have thought!


6sn7 maybe!


So..   Your ax7..    hooked up how?

and..   now about the tubes..


Oztules, it's not about the tubes..   it's the destination.  

(I myself thinks..  tubes get ya there with less effort)

You don't have to have tubes to get you there..   and their sure not for everyone!

"poked by 400vdc"   {it hadda be.. dc}   The smell of burnt flesh?  {dark crusty spot on  your thumb?}  Perhaps the memory of your jaw clenching hard enough to shorten your toes?

Been there .. done that.   We had shirts made...  a regular club!


oh yeah,   the destination..    it isn't the "next life"...

it's the music..


If you love the thought of that faint orange/red glow...   GO for it.  If you love listening to music...   ya Gotta go for it.  

But...  if it's mostly the music..   then oh boy!   your in for it!

I'd like to suggest..  that you visit "diyaudio.com"  (can one insert links using tube stuff?)  don't waste too much of your time "Like I did"..  check em out..   and sign up asap.    Keep an open mind..   a whole lotta crazys there!    L  DIY tubes..  best advice I could give.

and if...   you want to..   do tubes and at the same time..  your running off an inverter.. re..   Do a tube front end and mate it to a "gainclone"  

And for anyone else that may for some reason still be following this thread..  and it's direction.  

Oztules,   if you google "gainclone"   you'll get plenty of hits.

it's a Solid State amp.   a single device amp.   Nationl Semiconductor   Lm3875  very cheap to build.   and after listening to IPC amps for a couple of years..(you know ipc... right?)  I was very "shocked"..  just how sweet the gainclone sounds!

of course..   ya  gotta have a tube front end!   and my ax7s..   work mighty fine!


and if you go that nutz...   then it's going to be time to pull out your records!

(and if...  ya can't do that)  

The next step would be..  tweaking your cd player!


I should/could also mention that a lot of my "waterwheel" time has in fact been eaten by the amp I just almost completed...  (yeah..  its far enough along to listen and smile)


and speaking of the water wheel...we're in for another 4 - 5 inches of snow..  17f..   too cold!

"plenty of time for more paper work play"

ah...   and then there's that extra special smell...   old tubes and transformers..  running a wee bit warm!

Ya got a scope?  

Another good place to spend "tubetime"..  is Ebay..  search tube amps..   ect..

ya never know what you might see..


and like I said..


Do your heaters with dc!

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 12:02:34 AM by 12AX7 »

sahlein

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2006, 01:11:55 AM »
Lessee.... It seems to me that an 811-A looked like a mayonaise jar with a 4-pin base and a grid cap..... right???  Four of those will make you an 800 watt linear??

I still have a 1/16 inch hole in my hand from a "zap" from a 600vdc plate supply!

That was 40+ years ago!  It was also the LAST time I got "zapped"!  I LEARNED!!!

I guess these days...  someone would call "Child Protective Services"!

Well, "F--- "em" a kid has got to learn!  I did!!!

Joe s.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 01:11:55 AM by sahlein »

oztules

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2006, 02:44:29 AM »
AAhhh  the smell of burnt flesh and ozone. remember it well.


Where i lived as a boy. it got to 115 degrees on a regular basis in summer, and i always got "hit" when i was sweaty.  Seemed to penetrate more than in the winter with cold dry hands....in Winter it wasn't so bad. 811 were good transmitter tubes, could drive up over 1400v......


Used to make the plates on a 6v6 glow an evil red trying to get 40w out in c class  Sadly i didn't do much with rf. I liked af, in fact spent more time listening to them 2/3 way through a build, than it took to actually build them. ..testing ... another song testing ...... suddenly it's tomorrow.   now i think of it it was almost forty years ago. feeling very old all of a sudden.


...........oztules.........older but no wiser..

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 02:44:29 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

oztules

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2006, 03:30:02 AM »
Well well well...lm3875 how the mighty have fallen!!!


Here we have a tubeman needing the warmth from the music (but mostly the filaments) and he mentions a (dare i say it) intergrated circuit........ and worse, he has one in his posession...boo.. hiss.. (I can hear the crowd getting fidgety).


Well if you must know, i developed a circuit inspired by a sony motional feedback amplifier, and a phillips motional feedback speaker. This cpould take a while to explain, so grab a coffee and settle back.


The lm3875 as you know is an operational amp. If we use a second op amp (393) as a presampler, we can get a sample of what the speaker did with its signal, against what it should have done with its signal. Any diference between the input sig, and the measured speaker cone accelerations is by definition distortion.


Knowing this we can sample the speakers realtime performance by one of two methods. We can put an accellerometer to measure what the cone is doing (phillips does this with a fet amplifier and microphone built into the center of the woofer cone) or we can measure the speakers back emf, which will reflect any difference between what we think it should have done to what it actually did.


We can then feed a compensating voltage difference signal back into the op-amp and force it to comply with what we have sent as signal.


Gosh why would we do this?  As you can see if you have control over the cones performance, then you can compensate for the speaker box inadequacies, and room position of the speaker ie on floor, against wall etc. Each of these things influence how the speaker transduces the signal into the air.


In my case I designed a three channel treb,mid,bass amplifier, with motional feedback compensation, to make each speaker channel. So the tweeter has it's own amp with feedback as does the squawker and bass speaker. It allows accurate tracking of the signal to the speaker. Needless to say, you have to break up the input signal into three pieces before the three amps. This gives you an added level of control of how you want the signal to sound. You also get to change the amount of compensation if you wish to see the difference between straight thru and motional feedbak.


Makes a neat system at around 80 watts per channel.. If you start to go into non-linear zone,(distortion) the amp automatically starts to compensate by compressing the signal by default. Because of this, if you do choose to blast someone out of the room, you can pull the average full power up considerably without distortion, until it beams at you.. very impressive, but hard on the eardrums as it behaves like a very very much larger amplifier (coz the compression).


So yes, am very familiar with lm1875 I find it gets very hot with 32v +- on the power inputs. Thats my only complaint. If you are going to use it as a party machine, it needs pentium fins and fan, but what a machine.


And best of all, you can drive it with the 12ax7 front end....and yes you can get the grids rattling for a bit of ambiance and body in the music.


Well I'm worn out after that


............oztules

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 03:30:02 AM by oztules »
Flinders Island Australia

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2006, 09:05:44 AM »
Greetings Sahlein


Watt's nice about mob. 28..  nothing special needed to add to the washing machine!

Master-Carr is indeed a wonderful source...  but   the drawback is..

if you bought it from them...  you most likely paid too much.   L


I can't say I recall the ck722.   Power transistor?   audio or rf use?

Had a friend,  a few years ago..  agree to make someone a "tube like sounding" Transistor amp.


He gathered a bunch of old power transistors...   ground the tops off of them..  and used them to mount "tube sockets"


That amp,  had lots of transistors...  but sure had a nice tube sound!

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 09:05:44 AM by 12AX7 »

finnsawyer

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2006, 09:42:09 AM »
Yeah, the CK722 was the first transistor I encountered, I believe.  I also recall that it was basically a general purpose type.  Did you ever try soldering wires to semi-conductor pieces?  Well, I did, as a student at MIT.  The aim of the research was to study the effects of doping on the semi-conductors using the Hall Effect.  As a lowly undergrad I had the task of connecting the wires.  Loads of fun.  As you can see, this goes back to the early days of semi-conductor development.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 09:42:09 AM by finnsawyer »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2006, 10:26:54 AM »
and here I thought all the glass I've been walking on...  came from broken tubes..

now both SHOCKED and EMBARASSED...   to find their beer bottles that the crowd are tossing at me!  (when the crowds gets this restless... one needs to keep an eye on the nearest exit)


Okay!  where to start?   ah!   first things first...  COFFEE.  

next to sound..   that's the second part of life I've learned to become anal over.

You do grind your own beans...  right?   and always...corse never fine!


One of the most common mistakes made in the brewing process..   is TIME.

the water (hot)  should NEVER be in contact with the grinds for longer than 3 min.

most are mistaken when they think longer times mean stronger coffee!   longer time cause the foul acids from the inside of the bean shell to leach into the brew!   This is the source for bitterness...Bitter coffee isn't strong..   it's CRAPPY!

YOu always seem to be a page or two ahead of me..  so perhaps I'm wasting time here..   so for the benefit of the others...   L  Get yourself a "French Press" and fresh roasted beans..  and don't forget..  REAL men   fire up their amps before the head off to the kitchen to make the first pot of the day!  

Cream if  you must (not milk)    Sugar in the Raw..  not refined!


I feel like I need to come up with an excuse or two...  so here goes..

I fire up the preamp..   go grind the beans..and start the brew..  and then switch on the power amps..   (never power amps first!)  and my day begins.  

last moment of the day..  switch off the power amps...system..  lights out.. and off to bed.

Druing the day..   I may be in and out of the house billions and billions of times

the trouble of finding nos tubes..  and perhaps (horror of all horrors) an output transformer...  

From 8 am to...   1 or 2 am..  a long long time for the heat to do it's thing.

The IPC's slap the gainclones about..  and never jiggle a filiment. L


For those that don't know..  IPC   was   "International Projector Comany"  They were "the" people when it came to movie theaters..   so..  the company was ipc..  but they didn't build the stuff..  they just set the standards for their vendors to meet.   The amps I'm using are made by Altec transformers by Peerles..  Iron and Glass   a mighty fine combo!  

I repect and value them too much to let them idle their lives away.


Second solidstate excuse...   and it should work well here of all places! Think of the oil and coal thats burnt just to keep em on.. let alone cranked up!

The gainclones I'm running were given to me by my brother..asked me to "give em a try".   (yeah,  they did come in a couple of ziplock baggies.. needed to do the rest.


Besides the IPCs   I've a pair of old Dynacos mark 3's   running 6550s  not as powerful, nor as sweet.   But makes most any currenly SS amps sound poopie.

and..   then..   if needed..  a trip to the land of milk and honey..  pull out the 6550s   pop in a set of EL34's  remove the humm..   screen grid?  add a 100ohm to ground..  and  you've left the world of ultra linear..  There's just SOMETHING about TRIODES....  

Oztules  it sounds like you've been 'around' and been busy too!  

One item that I find a bit.. confusing..  is your comment about heat. (your 32vdc rail voltage) makes me think that your running speakers greater than 8ohms?

My power transformer has three taps on the primary side..  can switch my rails..

27.14 vdc..   29.45  or 32.47  at about day 2 (second day of their life) I played a short time, to find that the best sound was at the lowest rails.  Based on the info I had..  told me that my speakers dipped well  below 8.  I've had the clones running for a month or two..   even with several hours of moderatly loud playing..  they never get more than warm.    You "scoped" your outputs?


This post is already long enough..   SO I'll cut it off here,  but I'll/we'll need to revisit..  Cause I've questions about the crossovers you used for your Tri-amp system.  My speakers are power hungry  and want/need more!  


Come to think of it...  maybe I need a bigger paddle wheel!


coffee...  tubes and the rest is just a smile.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 10:26:54 AM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2006, 10:46:13 AM »
Hello Sahlein..

The 811's    yes to four pin base.  but the tube isn't as wide as a mayo jar.  L

On my desk..  or very near by.. is my rca tube manual.. it doesn't cover the 811a..  and right now I'm to lazy to go dig up one of my old arrl handbooks...  but I think the top cap was the plate.    I know a pair will do 500pep..  a quad set?  800?  yeah, I can beleive that.   Funny thing when ya creep above 500vdc..  it seems to want to JUMP out at ya..  L

One hit and you learned?  wow..  The one lesson that have learned is..  it's better to have no witness   (unless they know cpr..  and you don't mind the idea of a big wett kiss from them)  L


Sure hope that quad pair isn't used on 11 meters!

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 10:46:13 AM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2006, 10:20:43 PM »
Hello Finsawyer


The only semiconductor in "pieces" that I worked with...is one that had exploded..

soldering to a substrate?  

I recall a 2n3055?

« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 10:20:43 PM by 12AX7 »

finnsawyer

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2006, 08:02:15 AM »
Well, you need to connect the wires somehow.  Of course, machines can do it better than a shaking hand.  Back then they were still trying to find out how the various levels of doping affected the conduction properties of holes and electrons in the material.  The Hall Effect allowed one to determine whether holes or electrons were involved.  It's obviously come a long way since then.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 08:02:15 AM by finnsawyer »

elvin1949

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2006, 10:43:17 AM »
If i remember right someone here put a BIG prop

on a 12 volt trolling motor and made a gennie that worked.

 Don't remember who or how well it worked.

later

elvin


ps that is how a jackrabbit flow of stream gennie works  I think Real Goods sell's it.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 10:43:17 AM by elvin1949 »

commanda

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2006, 12:35:36 PM »
If I may make a suggestion about gearing;


Friction drive the alternator off the periphery of the water wheel.


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 12:35:36 PM by commanda »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2006, 09:49:06 PM »
Hello Elvin 1949


I've seen some writes ups on that .. or that idea.

Problem I have is that the river level at my "sweet spot's"  depth (druing a dry spell) may be as low as 18 inches (even at this depth the current is still very strong)


I don't think a "prop" style genn is the answer..   although I may head that way ..with another "project"..    depending on the type of winter..  may work well under the ice.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 09:49:06 PM by 12AX7 »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2006, 09:59:38 PM »
Hello Commanda


Yes you may!    and no need to limit yourself to just one!

Tell you the truth,  that's one thing I hadn't thought of!


However,  at this time my waterwheel will most likely be more a "paddle" wheel

where the paddles (for now, half of 55gal drums)   and I'm thinking of mounting them on supports more like "Spokes"  So,  the "wheel" really won't have an large "round" circumfrence.  If I find that the "spokes"  flex too much (side to side)..  then a support around the circumfrence may be needed.


The drive on the "periphery" may be a bit touchy in that it will be "wet"  and then there's the problem of "muck"   or "river slime"    

The river can be very CLEAR and depending on rain.. farming...  and constructon the water conditions can change with out warning.


I suppose a cogged drive may over come this..   but alignment and wear would be an "issue"?

« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 09:59:38 PM by 12AX7 »

commanda

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2006, 11:28:17 PM »
Hello Commanda


Yes you may!    and no need to limit yourself to just one!

Tell you the truth,  that's one thing I hadn't thought of!


OK. One more suggestion. Start at the other end of the equation. How much power do you realistically need. Lots of threads on here on reducing consumption. Rivers flow 24/7. Might find you only need 100-200 watts constantly. CFL lighting. Laptop. Small washing machine & clothes line. Solar hot water. Gas cooking. LCD TV. Stereo.


Amanda

« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 11:28:17 PM by commanda »

12AX7

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2006, 09:53:48 AM »
Good morning Commanda!


I know your suggestion (starting at the other end of the equation) really should be very close to the top of the "hit list" for this project.


To most anyone the route I'm taking would seem foolish and poorly planned.


Is a "project" that appears to have no goal really a project..  or just a waste of time?  


When it comes to my power needs..  I'm a pig.  Might sound a bit crass (sp?)  and to many here whose goal it is to get off the grid would really object to my careless way I "waste" power.  


It's not my goal to get off the grid,  nor to save a buck.  (but I'd not object if it works out that way).


I'll call it a project,  but really it will serve only two purposes.  

one ..   the first,   to end up with a "waterwheel"   that will be pleasing to the eye..    The second,  to prove to a cetain "few"  that it can be done. (okay okay okay.. maybe I'm one of them)


Some of those that have read my rambling posts by now..  must think I'm missing a gear or two..  (hell I know I've lost a few over the years).  To have the intentions of building such a contraption with out the "technical foundation".  


This "thing"  I'll build isn't something I've just thought up..  and jumping into ..

It's been an  on going notion for many years.   Tell you (and anyone else)the truth that it really isn't "mine".  in fact, it's following something my dad "daydreamed out loud" about.   While "playing" in the river..  (I was way past being a teenager at that time)   I was..  moving river rocks about..  removing trash and doing what was needed to improve the fish habitat.   Standing in the "sweetspot"  the place where the current is the swiftest (where the wheel will be).   My dad sitting on the shore, chewing on a piece of grass..   saying..  "can you imagine the power?"

That was many years ago..  


yes dad.  I can.


If I am a 1/3rd the man he was,  and I learned an 1/8th of what he "tried" to teach me..  and..  if   I remember 1/2 of that..  I could power the city.


So anyways..   if it goes round n round..   maybe powers a string of lights along the river (my river frontage)..   I'll be content.    IF those lights are.. say 100watts per bulb...  dad would nod his head, and have a twinkle in his eye.


My dad didn't raise no fool.   (it was my mommas job).


Thanks Amanda..   keep in touch.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 09:53:48 AM by 12AX7 »

elvin1949

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2006, 06:46:45 PM »
I would have to look it up BUT i think the jackrabbit only needs 13" of water.

later

elvin
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 06:46:45 PM by elvin1949 »

elvin1949

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Re: Low speed hydro
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2006, 07:01:16 PM »
12ax7

 I was right. The jackrabbit has a 12.5" prop.

It needs 13"of water.It is 12 or 24 volt.

NOT switchable


  1. mph flow=2,400 watt-hours a day.
  2. mph flow=over 1,500 watt-hours a day.
  3. yr warranty


Price 1195.00 dollars  spare prop  169.00 dollars.

from  www.realgoods.com

later

elvin
« Last Edit: March 09, 2006, 07:01:16 PM by elvin1949 »