Author Topic: low speed problem  (Read 1702 times)

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willib

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low speed problem
« on: May 02, 2006, 07:41:50 AM »
i tested the root section the weekend before  last . lots of torque

 i tested the blades with the second section  last weekend , also lots of torque.

today i almost caught my finger in between the back mounting bolt and the spinning back of the HD bearing i'm using to test them on.. more torque than any other time..

wind conditions were not good ,i would say 3 to 7 mph with the ocational gust to 10mph.

today i clocked them with the second hand of my watch..hmmm 12rev in 15 seconds ,not good maybe i made a mistake , waited for another 10 mph " gust" nope , something is definatly wrong.

The root section was at 42 degrees relative to the hub , i checked it before i left.


http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2965/flare_jpg 75Kb

i dont know why i left it that way ,but i found the shape almost as it is..could that flare be the problem?

long story short, i'm gonna cut that flare off and make the root shape like the rest of the blades. a true air foil..

with a tsr of 6 it should have been doing about 170 rpm in a 10 mph wind, possibly more..

also i'm gonna clean them up , there are a LOT of rough spots on them which i know adds a lot of drag

« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 07:41:50 AM by (unknown) »
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SamoaPower

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2006, 01:38:57 PM »
I guess I have trouble seeing what you want to accomplish with this project. Do you have a real objective or is it fun and games or perhaps 'foam art'? I don't see how testing a portion of a blade would give any reasonable results that you could extrapolate to the finished product.


In your previous post (Got Root?) you stated that the rotor diameter was to be 9.8' but later in the same post you said it was 7.75'. You also said that the first station was located at 8" radius and assuming the first station was at 10%, that doesn't translate to to either diameter. Color me confused.


I didn't see mention of any sort of spar system to be used. Unless you intend a very thick glassing job, it doesn't look to me you would have the necessary strength without spars. Did you allow for the skin thickness when cutting your airfoil templates? Not doing so will change the airfoil for a given chord. What is the L/D and Cl of that airfoil? For decent efficiency, you should shoot for a L/D~100 and a Cl of 1.0 or better. One of my favorites, the Wortmann FX60-126, meets these requirements.


The inner 20% only contributes 4% of the rotor power, 25% - 6% and 30% - 9%. That's a lot of extra material and work for little return when you consider the large inner chord. Also, progressive taper and twist only buys you a few percent (perhaps 5%) over linear taper and twist which is a whole lot easier to make. If you went linear, you could really put that hot wire cutter to good use. Tacking a root and tip template on the ends of your foam blank to serve as cutting guides, you can cut the whole thing with one pass (assuming your wire is long enough). Spar slots can also be put into your templates.


I believe that starting at 20-25% radius and using linear taper and twist and a GOOD AIRFOIL, you can end up with 40-45% efficiency which is probably better than most of the blades found on this board. Air rotor design shouldn't be arbitrary.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 01:38:57 PM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2006, 09:46:17 PM »
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/afplots/fx60126.gif

yes i like that one too.and thank you for your reply , my diarys are not invisable after all.  :)


"I guess I have trouble seeing what you want to accomplish with this project. Do you have a real objective or is it fun and games or perhaps 'foam art'? I don't see how testing a portion of a blade would give any reasonable results that you could extrapolate to the finished product"


if you look at it this way , testing the root section and subsequent ones should produce results at least as fast as the final (target) rpm.  for a given wind speed.

and since they did not , i knew something was wrong.

lol foam art perhaps , but there IS a real objective , i've got 48 neos just iching to be powered by these things.


"In your previous post (Got Root?) you stated that the rotor diameter was to be 9.8' but later in the same post you said it was 7.75'. You also said that the first station was located at 8" radius and assuming the first station was at 10%, that doesn't translate to to either diameter. Color me confused."


i was just thinking about that last night ! , that i should bring them in , closer to the hub.thanks for pointing that out.

as for the final dia i can see where the confusion comes in ..., part of the problem was the foam was'nt as thick as i thought it was , it turned out to be only 7/8" thick , not the inch i thought it was :(

and since i allready have all three 33 percent done and the other sections for one 88 percent done , there is no way to change the ones i've allready finished( by adding another layer of foam per section...)


"I didn't see mention of any sort of spar system to be used. Unless you intend a very thick glassing job, it doesn't look to me you would have the necessary strength without spars. Did you allow for the skin thickness when cutting your airfoil templates? Not doing so will change the airfoil for a given chord. What is the L/D and Cl of that airfoil? For decent efficiency, you should shoot for a L/D~100 and a Cl of 1.0 or better. One of my favorites, the Wortmann FX60-126, meets these requirements."


all very good questions, and frankly i have no idea what the lift/drag is for the airfoil i'm using :(

nor the coefficient of lift. sorry.anyone know??

as for the strength , yes i'm going to glass/epoxy  them and no i did not allow for the skin thickness when cutting the sections, they're just going to have to be a little bigger , thats all . as Flux said , blades can be very forgiving , i guess we'll find out


"The inner 20% only contributes 4% of the rotor power, 25% - 6% and 30% - 9%. That's a lot of extra material and work for little return when you consider the large inner chord. Also, progressive taper and twist only buys you a few percent (perhaps 5%) over linear taper and twist which is a whole lot easier to make. If you went linear, you could really put that hot wire cutter to good use. Tacking a root and tip template on the ends of your foam blank to serve as cutting guides, you can cut the whole thing with one pass (assuming your wire is long enough). Spar slots can also be put into your templates."


i couldnt see making a foam blade without the twist and taper ( wood yes ) but the foam would probably ( maybe) flop around , the twist and taper adds much more strength than you might imagine.

i still have those very , very large foam pieces, four -  8'x 9" x 4" , a truely awesome find that was..

so if you left off the inner 30 % would you be leaving out 19% of the total? i'm a little unsure how that works?

 

« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 09:46:17 PM by willib »
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rotornuts

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 11:38:52 AM »
A few things I can think of. Without seeing the blade I'm guessing but see below image.





The trailing edge of the blade is located at a larger diameter than the lead edge at the root. The void being dragged around is causing drag.


The aspect ratio is too low(length to width), increase length.


Surface is too rough.


Mike

« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 11:38:52 AM by rotornuts »

SamoaPower

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2006, 11:41:38 AM »
willib,

Thanks for your response. I now have a much better idea of what you are up to. I guess I should start off by editing the last sentence of my first comment to read, "If you want good results, blade design shouldn't be arbitrary." Although I agree with Flux on most things, air rotor design isn't one of them. I know he and others have stated that a careful design and execution produced little improvement in results but I suspect it was more a measurement problem. A 5% improvement in efficiency might just keep a rotor out of stall, for example. Speaking of measurement, I still don't see that measuring the free-wheeling (unloaded) speed of a partial blade section will produce meaningful results. To illustrate, use one of the blade calculators to design a one foot blade and a five foot blade with all other factors remaining the same. Does the first 20% of the five footer look like the one footer? Would you expect the truncated five foot to perform the same as the one foot?


"yes i like that one too.and thank you for your reply"


Why do you like this one when all you are seeing is an outline? Without the lift and drag polar plots, you don't know anything about the performance.


 "i was just thinking about that last night ! , that i should bring them in , closer to the hub."


Isn't this being arbitrary? What do you base this on?


"all very good questions, and frankly i have no idea what the lift/drag is for the airfoil i'm using :(

nor the coefficient of lift. sorry.anyone know??"


You haven't mentioned what this airfoil is. Is it a published one? Airfoil performance has to be measured in a wind tunnel, it can't just be calculated. Without knowing the particulars about an airfoil, how can you design a blade? Small differences in profile can have a large impact on performance. Arbitrary airfoils are probably more responsible for poor rotor efficiency among DIY efforts than anything else. For a TSR of 6, an L/D of 8 can only produce an efficiency of 12% at best. L/D of 13=28%, L/D of 33=43% and L/D of 100=50%.


"i couldnt see making a foam blade without the twist and taper ( wood yes ) but the foam would probably ( maybe) flop around , the twist and taper adds much more strength than you might imagine."


I wasn't suggesting that you eliminate taper and twist but that you make them linear rather than the station-by-station amount suggested by the blade calculators.


The foam cores add little to the strength of the end result. The foam is only there to provide shape for the skins. All the strength comes from the skin and spar system.


"so if you left off the inner 30 % would you be leaving out 19% of the total? i'm a little unsure how that works?"


No. It's only 9% for the first 30% of the radius. It's calculated by the ratio of the swept areas. For example, the swept area of a 10' diameter rotor is about 79 sq ft. A 3' circle is about 7 sq ft. 7/79~9%.


Good luck with it willib.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 11:41:38 AM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2006, 01:41:01 PM »
i agree and i am working on a new root with a Much better shape than the old one..

samoa i need a cup of coffie before tackling your post .lol

rotornuts the balde are at the bottom of my files page..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 01:41:01 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2006, 02:59:12 PM »
"I still don't see that measuring the free-wheeling (unloaded) speed of a partial blade section will produce meaningful results. To illustrate, use one of the blade calculators to design a one foot blade and a five foot blade with all other factors remaining the same. Does the first 20% of the five footer look like the one footer? Would you expect the truncated five foot to perform the same as the one foot?"


of course not.. ..

what i expected was the blades to spin at least as fast as the final full blade...

given the 42 degree angle of the root , the 23 degree angle of the second section and the 14 degree angle of the third ( a tsr of 6), they SHOULD have spun at least 3.5 times faster than they did..

THAT is why i was happy to find out now that something was amiss, rather than later..


"Why do you like this one when all you are seeing is an outline? Without the lift and drag polar plots, you don't know anything about the performance."


i chose not to post that , if you would like to see it just ask..


"You haven't mentioned what this airfoil is. Is it a published one? Airfoil performance has to be measured in a wind tunnel, it can't just be calculated. Without knowing the particulars about an airfoil, how can you design a blade? Small differences in profile can have a large impact on performance. Arbitrary airfoils are probably more responsible for poor rotor efficiency among DIY efforts than anything else. For a TSR of 6, an L/D of 8 can only produce an efficiency of 12% at best. L/D of 13=28%, L/D of 33=43% and L/D of 100=50%."


i said before i dont know......

i thought you might know , i thought it was a standard airfoil ?


"No. It's only 9% for the first 30% of the radius. It's calculated by the ratio of the swept areas. For example, the swept area of a 10' diameter rotor is about 79 sq ft. A 3' circle is about 7 sq ft. 7/79~9%."


thanks for the clarification

« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 02:59:12 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 05:46:14 PM »
I'm very happy to report that they now work much much better..

the wind today was less than the last test and they were spinning at 68 to 70 rpm

thats more like it..

i made a new root station and trimmed the three blades down to it..
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 05:46:14 PM by willib »
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rotornuts

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 03:53:12 PM »
Have a picture?


Mike

« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 03:53:12 PM by rotornuts »

willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 06:10:56 PM »
not of the three sections as it was tested ,that would require me to reassemble it

....
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 06:10:56 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 06:25:16 PM »
just these grins

below is seven of nine sections, standing vertical the eighth one is in front , and the ninth hasnt been born yet





this is a good shot of the twist




this is a good shot of the leading edge





still havent sanded them yet though

« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 06:25:16 PM by willib »
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willib

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Re: low speed problem
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2006, 07:36:13 PM »
C'mon people!!!

104 of you looked at this and only two replies is petiful in my opinion
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 07:36:13 PM by willib »
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