Author Topic: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff  (Read 3407 times)

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MaxT

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Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« on: May 12, 2006, 01:45:33 PM »



Once again, if this is an old invention, then the freewaring copyright only means the picture itself... otherwise it's free for all to use.


After last posts I got some complaints, like the pictures being more artsy than useful, and the pictures being totally smudged up by one faulty process or other. Smudges were due to Bitmap Grafix software I use ( Photoshop Elements ) telling always faulty news about the image size and quality, when converting from .Tif to .jpg. The lack of numbers and such was due to my inexperience and the early stage of the Idea.


In this diagram I included the precise wing / blade shaping angles and shapes... and their proper angles to each other (Picture can be enlarged and curves matched to them).


Then I calculated all the angles and proportions visually (For example 45 degree angle gives this 50 % foreshortening in the vertical height of the mast and the both wings ).

For example, in this A4 sized ( should be printable ) wingspan is 12 cm (6 cm per wing) and the mast height is ( 12cm : 5 = 2,4cm = 1x. 2,4cm X 4 = 9,6cm = lenght of the mast ) 9,6 cm. Towards the viewer, and also the direction of the wind, it seems to be 4,8cm due to it's diagonal 45 degree angle ( which causes that 50% foreshortening ).


Thus, when these proportions and angles are followed, the result should always be the shape below ( Though, with tight just untreated sail and this amount of curves, it will be more pointy than round, like bat wings, and a bit less fx. ) Using other wing materials, or 2x more of curves ( the height of the mast stays same, regardless ) should eliminate that... while possibly adding some weight.


The angles within the curves were calculated by the 45 angle of the whole apparatus and their "changing" profile towards the wind. Thus I came up with the steepest (uppermost)  curve. Next one is 75% of it's "depth", thus properly aligning it's angles, next is 50% and the next is 25% and the bottom "curve" is always meant to be a straight stick. To make extra curves, take the top curve ( Which I call the Basic Curve ) and flatten it accordingly ( for example, extra curve between the Basic Top Curve and the next curve in the diagram... would be Basic Curve x 77,25 % in it's angle steepness. ( basically 90 degrees from the Basic top curve means 50% flattening of the curves... can be counted from that too... though here it has to be remembered that the virtual line, from exact center to the outer tip of the curve to be used, not the attachement point in the mast, as these change somewhat much depending on the actual curvature of each layer ). In other words, a thing that's not too hard to think or do in diagrams... but at least for me it's kind of gibberish to try to explain it precisely in the words. All this degree and % stuff can possibly be easier grasped by staring at the picture, than listening to me trying to explain it in math / verbal terms.


I planned versions with funnel shapes, broader flatter curves, etc. None of them seem viable, so from this diagram I eliminated all hints and musings to such shapes... I also planned nice wood / rope bearings to use where metal is not available... but surprise surprise, that seems slightly highly prone to catch fires constantly, so no more references to that shall be made. Ever.


Here, just for confusion's sake, is earlier version with some serious flaws, but with possibly somewhat workable mounting for the whole thing. (Wheels and their pathway is optional idea, possibly unneccessary in smaller versions). So notice only the mounting here. And also the neato wind-energy logo I sketched to it.




For extreme experimenting, One windyoni could be placed upside down, on a different but diagonal mounting, on a hilltop, so that the wind would enter the wings diagonally from "below". The point would (not be to make the wind catch the colourful whirling thingy and hurl it somewhere where it could do harm by falling on people and stuff) be to get increased efficiency from ground effect as the air gets packed between ground and the wingtips. Sounds less safe, though.


And so on. Next time, something else ?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 01:45:33 PM by (unknown) »

Titantornado

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2006, 09:59:11 AM »
Could you make your pictures a little BIGGER?  I can't quite see them.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 09:59:11 AM by Titantornado »

Ampman354

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2006, 10:07:42 AM »
lol
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 10:07:42 AM by Ampman354 »

dinges

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2006, 12:29:13 PM »
"Next time, something else ?"


No, I'd rather you didn't. I'm not on a slow dialup line, but I've cursed a few times.


Peter.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 12:29:13 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dalibor

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2006, 12:50:45 AM »
to see those pics completely i will have to byu plasma displey with 2m diag.


why they are so big? it is hard to get idea properly.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 12:50:45 AM by dalibor »

pickerol

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2006, 02:53:36 AM »
Beautiful,

Looks a little like the big vertical sail (40') I saw on the easr coast. Lost the link but that guy used a cloth sail to power a friction heating unit along with power generation. A big cloth pin wheel.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 02:53:36 AM by pickerol »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2006, 04:05:01 AM »
Ouch ! Sorry about this. Sorry. Last time people complained they were too small and smudgy. I would like to keep this level of detail and accuracy (I hope), but perhaps 156 color selection and some more effective picture format would be in order. That format would have to be a rather common one. Any ideas ?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:05:01 AM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2006, 04:15:46 AM »
I made them big so that they can be printed (it's supposed to be printable A4 with 300dpi accuracy... I wonder if that was lost in the .tif to .jpg transformation... ), enlarged, and the blade layer curves can be formed directly on actual life sized blueprint (well, "blueprint-oid" anyways).


For viewing this sort of stuff, I use AC/DC, shareware software with good n' easy zoom in/out tool. (It usually can show any obsucure format and save them in more common formats.


Well... damn.


Should I post much smaller version then ? (enlargement won't be as feasible then, but idea should be clear).


Pseudomax

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:15:46 AM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2006, 04:41:48 AM »
Can you please please remember that link, or some clues to where to find it ?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:41:48 AM by MaxT »

dalibor

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2006, 04:59:48 AM »
i owe you huge apology. i have opened those pictures with "irfan view" - freeware similar to ACdsee software.


very interesting idea indeed.


i just couldn`t imagine how many people will stare at this kind of device in my house garden :-).

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:59:48 AM by dalibor »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2006, 05:08:39 AM »


Well there it is in a more compact size. Curve proportions do not show nearly as clearly... but I guess they show good enough.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 05:08:39 AM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2006, 05:28:09 AM »
Especially fun could be to make it somewhat transparent and fluerescent (Like thin layer of "uv-green" color and "black-light" illuminating it... could be wild after sunset... hmm: two thin plastic sail layers, with friction generated heat, centrifugal fx... and filled with fluid and gresy stuff, like lava lamp. That would probably be pretty useless as a generator, but turning slow, with psychedelic colored lava-gobs floating around at various centrifugally motivated directions... and a faint fluorescency fx as above... ).


Anyways, I can't help it. I just love odd looking stuff. Especially when it's efficient or does something totally new or old thing in a new way ( this was new idea to me ).


If you like weird ( and working ) stuff... I got more. This is only useful ( I hope it's useful ) wind generator that I designed. There are some flying ( useful for peaceful purposes only : slow and light, but should have good lift ) oddities for example.


Pseudomax

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 05:28:09 AM by MaxT »

hvirtane

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2006, 05:44:32 AM »
It looks really beautiful. It is difficult to estimate, how much it could produce power.


You might try developing a kind of 'renewable energy poster' utilizing these pictures?


- Hannu

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 05:44:32 AM by hvirtane »

pickerol

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2006, 08:27:58 AM »
I tried looking again w/o success. The windmill was built by the same people that run/ran Cansolar in Nova Scotia. They had a truck rear end atop a stirdy tower. The drive shaft came down to the ground and had a block of maple spinnig on a glass skinned water jacket. They claimed that this worked as a speed check because higher rpm's caused increased pressure between wood and glass. As well they had several pto's coming off the shaft that spun a geared up induction motor and an air compressor. It was quite a sight...sadly I lost pics after smithfraud virus got into my system last year.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 08:27:58 AM by pickerol »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2006, 08:46:52 AM »
Good idea... I think 2 posters. One with tried and tested technologies... and other with wild / promising stuff. Perhaps a single poster where the ideas are depicted, and tested ones are clearly marked with their good and bad points... and more experimental ones marked clearly differently. Hmm... with a "relational tree" of wind energy evolution perhaps ?


Anyways, it seems I need to remove that big picture, seems to cause harm and gray hairs to many. I'll replace it with link to the same picture on my Finnish web space. Should be ready today.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 08:46:52 AM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2006, 09:13:58 AM »
That big picture is now in this link:


http://koti.mbnet.fi/maxt/Windstuff/Yoni103.jpg  


Smaller version for quicker download is in the following link:


http://koti.mbnet.fi/maxt/Windstuff/Yoni103.jpg  


All the windstuff shall appear in that folder too: http://koti.mbnet.fi/maxt/Windstuff/


Feel free to browse around, though nothing but samples of my illustration gigs (and pictures for my own amusement) there.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:13:58 AM by MaxT »

fungus

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2006, 09:14:10 AM »
Hey,

Looks really good. I tried making a small one with a pencil as the shaft and some paper and it got going surprisingly quickly riding on my bike. I'll try to post some pictures later. Note: I only used one long peice of paper not two so it might work better. It didnt have amazing torque but it was only with paper.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:14:10 AM by fungus »

wdyasq

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re:size
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 09:17:18 AM »
to 50kb

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:17:18 AM by wdyasq »
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MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2006, 01:21:04 PM »
http://koti.mbnet.fi/maxt/Windstuff/Yonisml.jpg


There. Now it's in small & big sizes, as links. That link takes to small version (191 kb).


My bad. My inexperience and fumbling here. (And not the first time, last one, months ago, was about me not understanding the diaries and causing inadverently a ruckus about that. I'll get the hang of this...sooner, I hope, than later).


Admins will probably take away the big picture if they haven't already. I'm not quite sure whether people like or hate it... probably both, and thus have not yet removed it myself. From now on, I'll be posting these big pics as links.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 01:21:04 PM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: re:size
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 01:27:40 PM »
How did you do that ? ( I would love to know how to do it in the future to all pics I might post here. I use photoshop elements which has a tendency to lie astronomically about file sizes when resizing images and converting to different formats. ).


It actually is just clear enough.


I'll need to add the freewaring copyright in bigger font, as it's not clear enough to make out. I'll keep that in mind too.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 01:27:40 PM by MaxT »

MaxT

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Re: re:size
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 01:43:01 PM »
Nope, each time I add the copyrighting text... size goes to 140+ kb.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 01:43:01 PM by MaxT »

wdyasq

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Re: re:size
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2006, 01:52:44 PM »
MaxT,


I use "The Gimp".  It is now cross platform although that was done in LINUX.


I'll see if I can get the "strokes" right. After open file, image/scale image "popup window" I chose "new width" - 550 (old was 2480) and then "Save as" - done.


I also like ifranview as one can batch process files.


"The Gimp" is far too powerful for most uses....


Ron

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 01:52:44 PM by wdyasq »
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hvirtane

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Re: re:size
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2006, 02:56:03 PM »
I'm also often using 'Gimp' to do something

for my picture files. I'm using Debian GNU/linux

and so I don't know how well 'Gimp' works with

'Windows'. For drawing technological pictures,

'xfig' is good. That also exists for 'windows', but

installing might not be so easy.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 02:56:03 PM by hvirtane »

hvirtane

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2006, 03:00:33 PM »
I'll try to post some pictures later.

If possible, please try to post.


- Hannu

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 03:00:33 PM by hvirtane »

MaxT

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Re: Diagonal mast turbines & stuff
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2006, 03:49:09 PM »
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/5/13/203844/458


I thus direct this thread to above address.


The admins have notified that this one may be terminated in few hours, due to ridiculously huge picture files. That new diary entry address has links to big pictures, and properly sized versions of these images here. (under 50k each).


My bad, I used too big files. Sorry about the inconvenience I conjured up. I look forward to hearing more about that experiment, at the above linked thread.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 03:49:09 PM by MaxT »

oztules

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Re: re:size
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2006, 04:06:27 PM »
I decided to try Gimp, but I figured I was not entitled to go further than the front screen..... looked way to powerful to just be used for resizing.


Commanda suggested gnome had some progs in it, so I changed GUI from KDE to Gnome.  Gnome has a simple program incorporated in it called Display. Also loads as ImageMagick.


Simple and ideal for the task of cutting and resizing and then saving in variable compression and variable quality.


I like KDE better than gnome so found the user/bin/display file in the bowels of the system and linked to that. It works in KDE fine.


And Ron, 2kb... I wish. .8 to 1.3 usually.   I could run down the road and snip all the electric fences off their batteries, for the 30k's into Whitemark, but the thought of rampaging sheep and cattle all over the place doesn't seem worth it.... not to mention the Farmers.


I could force the folks down the road to turn them off until they could render them electrically silent (communications act I think covers this), but I would rather saw my own foot off than do that to my neighbours.


I will be going Satellite when the boss says I can (I strongly suspect that has a lot to do with how fast I finish building the house).


In the meantime, mostly text, to upload pictures is a ten minute job, but it's doable.


Big pics I have to ignore, small ones load in a minute or so.  I mostly only use the net to check what you folks are up to, and I have been lucky enough that most users have been ok with their file sizes, and those that haven't, yourself, Hannu or admin has turned them into a size I can view. (although still in a lot of stories I just read the text unless something takes my imagination, then I wait....)


I like the open silence out here, vast space and freedom, but I also like to see what other real people are up to in similar circumstances, and this is the place for that. And you don't Need a big bandwidth to do it.


Thanks a bunch folks.........oztules

« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 04:06:27 PM by oztules »
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