The Case for Hydrogen

[Goose]

I know Hydrogen isn't a big fan of the Adm.,  but this article is interesting.

http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_case_hydrogen/index.html

[willib]

thats very cool of iceland , pun intended

i allways liked the idea of flow batteries to power vehicles, instead of hydrogen.

[BigBreaker]

Iceland has all the energy they need from geothermal and natural gas.  That makes it a lot easier to afford inefficient energy transport/storage technology like H2.

Diatomic hydrogen is about the worst way to store energy there is.  Much better to hang it off the sides of a carbon chain.... oh wait that's gasoline.

Anyway quick reasons why h2 stinks:

Embrittlement - hard to make the storage, piping and valves last

Low energy density - big volumes, few BTUs / kWh

Low energy density - big mass, few BTUs / kWh

Pressurized h2 is dangerous

Cryo h2 is less dangerous but even more expensive

Hydrides - heavy, expensive, short lived

And the biggy - if you aren't going to start with fossil fuels you need to electrolize water with high quality electricity - generated somehow.

[Goose]

BigBreaker,

I am curious....what do you think is the answer to replacement of fossil fuels?  If Hydrogen isn't the answer, what would it be?  I like the idea of all electric, but batteries have to make a large improvement in storage, and charging time.

"Iceland has all the energy they need from geothermal and natural gas.  That makes it a lot easier to afford inefficient energy transport/storage technology like H2."

The USA has all the renewable energy they need also, but I don't see them in any hurry to use it.  Iceland is years ahead of us.

[electrondady1]

 i guess you could make a list of the shortcomings of fossil fuels

lets see . limited supply, totaly controlled by price gouging multinationals

carcenogenic,explosive poisonus

ecologicaly unsound both in production and use

stinks

and the big one , i can't make it out of water

[Goose]

Amen!

[willib]

wind power and flow batteries

A flow battery can be charged and discharged simultanously and at different voltages .

you pull into the flow-station ask for some new solution , the attendent drains your solution out and fills  new solution into your tank .

http://www.kepco.co.jp/english/rd/solution/solution_2.html

the solutions (2) are essentially the same but with different charges on the Vanadium ions.

therefore if they mix no problem,

[theTinker]

"i can't make it out of water"

That is the best reason ive ever heard.

[Goose]

You can't make it out of fossil fuel either.  That one is pretty good too!

[Goose]

sorry, I hit send and didn't mean too.  Don't know what I was talking about here.  Sure wish you could edit your posts.

[asdco]

 Hydrogen is NOT a dangerous gas as far as ignitable fuels are concerned. Why? because hydrogen is the lightest of elements and burns or escapes directly upwards whereas most fuels are heavy and travel along the ground enveloping a large area in flames or explosions. Compressed bottles of hydrogen are easily obtainable at any welding supply store because its quite safe as long as its pure hydro. As far as btu's? gasoline has about half the btu's of hydrogen.Embrittlement is a problem easily overcome by giving the engine a shot of hot nitrogen which changes the metals surface structure to prevent embrittlement. Look at the writing on the wall, hydrogen IS the future. Why do I say this? because I build and sell hydro generators, I saw where they came from and the huge advances they have made in a very short time. I have one testing on the bench right now that produces 42 litres per minute of pure hydro and it measures a foot-print of 14"x7"x7". You can beat your head up against the wall if you want but no power supply is comparable to hydrogen. It can power everything on earth and beyond forever or it can blow up the world, thats mankinds choice.

[willib]

asdco thank you for your contribution , and welcome to the board.

i am very interested in your work , and look forward to your future contributions to all our knowledge and understanding.

you write"As far as btu's? gasoline has about half the btu's of hydrogen."

Is this  at a  compressed relationship of H2 to gasoline?

[vawtman]

Any chance for a pic.Thanks asdco

[fungus]

I do believe that hydrogen is not a dangerous fuel. Today I saw an experiment where a toy car was put in a balloon filled with hydrogen. it was lit and the car was stone cold. When the same experiment was done with the equivalent energy from petrol, it melted te car completely and set it on fire.