Author Topic: Airfoils  (Read 7945 times)

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SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2006, 05:47:21 PM »
I think we need to put this rotor efficiency thing in proper perspective. I also think that we sometimes forget Mr. Betz who says the best we can do is 59.3% efficiency, not 100%.





I suspect that most of the rotors produced by people who frequent this board fall into the typical range. Increasing this to better than 40% is certainly feasable and practical with use of a proper high L/D airfoil.





Lowering the TSR will improve efficiency somewhat but most of the efficiency gain would come from a good airfoil.


Concerning alternators. Changing from a TSR of 6 to 4.5 would require a more powerful alternator of about 25% because of the lower RPM for a given wind speed. However, if we improve the rotor efficiency from a typical 30% to a better 45%, we have 50% more power to drive the alternator to a significantly higher output.


What's the bottom line? The Coefficent of Performance (Cp) could be improved from a typical 0.2 to better than 0.3.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 05:47:21 PM by SamoaPower »

Countryboy

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2006, 09:19:00 PM »
Is our end goal super high efficiency, or do we just want usable power?


I think ghurd brings up a good point.  It's a lot easier to add a couple inches to a blade to produce more power, than to beat ourselves silly trying to squeeze out every last watt possible with higher efficiency.


If economic costs are comparable, I would choose a lower efficiency turbine that provides me 1000 watts, as opposed to a super high efficiency turbine that only gives me 500 watts output.


In trying to build a better mousetrap, I think we often lose sight of the REAL goal - producing maximun power per dollar (or labor) invested.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 09:19:00 PM by Countryboy »

SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2006, 11:27:57 PM »
"It's a lot easier to add a couple inches to a blade to produce more power, than to beat ourselves silly trying to squeeze out every last watt possible with higher efficiency."


Unfortunately, adding a few inches to most blades won't give you a 50% increase in power.


"...beat ourselves silly ..."?


It costs virtually nothing, except acquiring knowledge, to produce a proper airfoil compared to producing an arbitrary one.


If using a brute force approach gives you as much satisfaction as a more elegant solution, sure, go for it.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 11:27:57 PM by SamoaPower »

wdyasq

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2006, 05:43:00 AM »
"It costs virtually nothing, except acquiring knowledge, to produce a proper airfoil compared to producing an arbitrary one."


I think we found the 'builder'. From an earelier post of mine:


"It doesn't matter what airfoil anyone who has researched this field recommends. The builder is going use WTF he choses with little or no regard to knowledge or research."


I think one of the goals of some is to bypass the laws of aerodynamics if possible.


"If using a brute force approach gives you as much satisfaction as a more elegant solution, sure, go for it."


That matches with my statement:


"Proper monitoring will not be maintained and in the end they will state,"It is all free anyway, what does it matter, I'll just build another windmill..."


The proper airfoil SHOULD give one more power in lower wind speeds. This is were and when it is needed. I don't think adding a 'few more inches to the tip' will compensate for bad initial airfoil selection. But, bad initial selection will continue to propogate the 'add a bit to the tips' attitude. Like junk yard dogs and ally cats, these things seem to self propogate and survive no matter what is done.


Perhaps one should not discourage this ignorance and stupidity. After all, the slightly  longer blades will run a bit slower and when the rest of the poor workmanship and lack of research tears up the mill it will happen with lower potential energy and possibly not kill a family member or pet wondering what is happening to the wierd device in the yard.


So many decisions....


Ron

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:43:00 AM by wdyasq »
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finnsawyer

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2006, 09:01:29 AM »
The first ten percent you can go after is to stop using 2 by 6's or 2 by anythings for carving the blades.  Go to a 6 by 6 or laminated blades to keep the angle of attack proper toward the root.  As it stands, as I see it, from half the radius down these blades from 2 by's are not contributing in producing power.  That's twenty five percent of the total, or say twenty five percent of Betz's limit, which is about fifteen percent assumed recoverable.  Then you can refine it more by introducing a Hemispherical hub of 30 percent of the radius with a properly designed set of blades giving another fifteen percent boost.  After you have optimized with these changes and seen how close you get to Betz's limit then try more sophisticated air foil shapes.  Oh yeah, don't forget about losses at the blade tips.


Or you can just wait for the wind to blow a little faster.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:01:29 AM by finnsawyer »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2006, 09:11:36 AM »
Ya Ron, it's hard for someone new to all of this to know exactly how to proceed.


We are all encouraged to Google before asking questions in here.  But when I Google, I come up with a lot of conflicting data.


I would not worry about adding a small increase in efficiency, but most of the "claim to fame",  people who have invested a lot more time and money than I will ever have, make boasts of 20 - 35% increases.  I have no way of knowing if these claims are fact, however.


Be that as it may, these claims are hard to overlook.


From all the data I have seen, a thinner blade, works better. And it just makes sense that a thinner blade would have less drag, and slice through the "solid" air easier.


But we run into inherent problems with a thinner blade.


The yawing stresses, frap the blades around like a rubber ruler.  So it seems to me that compromises have been made to keep the blades together and out of the tower.


We put 5 degrees incline on the drive axle axis, and make the root of the blade thicker to keep it sturdy.  The whole design of the units everyone is making now, has actually evolved around the blade designs.


I am thinking that an up wind turbine, is easier to furl than a down wind turbine.

But a down wind turbine would let the drive axis be flat and the thinner blades would not flex into the tower, they would flex AWAY from the tower.


If one were to proceed logically, looking at the blades first, actually changes the whole design of the turbine.


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:11:36 AM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2006, 10:18:44 AM »
"Concerning alternators. Changing from a TSR of 6 to 4.5 would require a more powerful alternator of about 25% because of the lower RPM for a given wind speed"


The design of the alternator comes into play here I think. By building a more precision alternator, you could use smaller air-gap and make up that 25%, without actually having to use more materials.


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 10:18:44 AM by Murlin »

wdyasq

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2006, 12:37:27 PM »
Murlin,

---

From all the data I have seen, a thinner blade, works better. And it just makes sense that a thinner blade would have less drag, and slice through the "solid" air easier.

---

At higher numbers you are correct. However, the wind turbine works at relatively very low Reynolds numbers. AND, once the machine starts producing power one is looking to reduce power as the blades are making far more power than the alternator can handle. One should remember the tips of the blades are running at a fairly sedate 120mph or less in high output conditions.


---

I am thinking that an up wind turbine, is easier to furl than a down wind turbine.

But a down wind turbine would let the drive axis be flat and the thinner blades would not flex into the tower, they would flex AWAY from the tower.

---


Well, at least you are thinking. That IS a start. Now, how are you going to bleed off the excess power in high winds and compensate for the shadow effect of the tower?


Ron

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 12:37:27 PM by wdyasq »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2006, 01:09:08 PM »
"If one were to proceed logically, looking at the blades first, actually changes the whole design of the turbine."


Ah yes murlin, you are learning fast. The realization that a system design viewpoint is needed (necessary?) comes too late for some. People would be well advised to complete the whole system design before cutting the first piece of wood or metal. I do understand the motivation to "get going" and make chips and I've had to curb the impulse in myself often.


As previously mentioned, the best starting place is with the site evaluation (resources) and the needs (wants). From there you can proceed to loads - batteries, inverters, dump loads and such. Now you get to energy sources like turbines and panels. Once you get to the turbine, there are lots of choices, considerations and compromises. Configuration (up or down wind), rotors (fixed or variable pitch), alternators/generators, control, protection and siting are elements to consider and THEY ALL INTERACT.


But, it's a fun process. It can be a little daunting for the first-timer, but if you enjoy challenges and are willing to do the research, it can be a real rewarding learning experience.


I think you're on the right track. Good luck with it murlin.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 01:09:08 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2006, 04:36:40 PM »
"Now, how are you going to bleed off the excess power in high winds and compensate for the shadow effect of the tower"


Yep, we have come full circle haven't we....hrmmmm.....


And the whole evolution of the Homebrew comes into focus.....


I can see that a more positive approach to the rotor blade design problem is in order.


Since I have a CNC I can machine up several smaller scale sets of blades out of some wood and do some wind tunnel testing of my own....


Might even be a fun experiment....I could even add an adjustable friction device on the shaft to simulate load.


I will post my findings on this matter as I intend to machine up at least 4 sets of blades and test them both up and down wind. Anyone with any geometry they could send me, would also be included in the test. Might take we a couple of months to get er done, as I am going on vacation.


I think by cutting the bottom out of a trashcan and mounting a 3 speed round fan on one end, and a pole with the rotor on the other end, I might be able to take an RPM meter used for RC airplanes and get some pretty good test results.


I think the data collected might be interesting.  Since there isn't anyone on the planet that could provide this info as it relates to out gennys....If anyone has any input to help my experiment, it would be more than welcome...


We will see if capturing that 35% is possible.


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:36:40 PM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2006, 04:40:23 PM »
Going to be a fun ride I can tell :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 04:40:23 PM by Murlin »

willib

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2006, 06:47:12 PM »
although this was made with wing design in mind , it explains very well the different airloil parameters.

http://www.designfoil.com/other/aflprimer.pdf
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 06:47:12 PM by willib »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2006, 02:31:13 PM »
Some notes on wind tunnel testing.


Set up the fan to exhaust air instead of pushing it to reduce swirl effects.


Use a diffuser to help straighten out the air flow.


Be aware that testing on smaller scale blades will reduce the Reynolds number at a given air velocity.


You need three measurements to say anything useful about a rotor. Air velocity, RPM and shaft torque and these need to be taken over a range of load. Free spinning RPM alone doesn't mean much.


Sounds like a fun project. Do it!

« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 02:31:13 PM by SamoaPower »

richhagen

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2006, 11:59:45 PM »
I don't have a perfect site.  The best I can do is mount them 15 feet above a four story building.  I also don't know if the differences between the blades will be great enough for me to measure between inaccuracies, slight fluxuations in wind between the mounts, and small differences in the alternators.  The one thing I can do is to carve them.  I could probably send a set of each to someone with a better testing location and better monitoring equipment pretty easily though (as I look at a couple of analog amp meters) Rich
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 11:59:45 PM by richhagen »
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Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2006, 06:02:59 AM »
I thought I would put a spring loaded, friction device on the shaft.  I could do different friction weights.


I thought about the tests. Using the shade tree mechanic approach I came up with a couple of tests that might help solve the problem.


How long it takes the rotor to get to speed from a dead stop.


RPM vs wind speed.


Both tests would be done with certain friction weights on the shaft.


If you just do these two tests and don't even worry about the numbers, you should be able to find the best rotor style I would think.


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:02:59 AM by Murlin »

SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2006, 12:57:54 PM »
A few thoughts murlin.


I guess it depends on what your objectives are, besides having fun. If one of those objectives is to come up with a model rotor design that you can say is better than certain other models and to then translate that model into a full scale version, I think you may be disappointed.


One of the reasons, as mentioned, is this business about Reynolds number. If you make 1/10 scale models (20' to 2'), the Reynolds number will be reduced by the same factor for a given air velocity. Airfoils behave differently at different Reynolds numbers. Different airfoils have different differences - if that makes any sense.


To test a model, even comparatively, to be translatable to full scale, you need to test at Reynolds numbers comparable to the full scale version. To do this, you would need air velocities 10 times (for the example) the full scale wind speeds. For a real world 20 mph wind, you would need 200 mph in the wind tunnel. You certainly aren't going to do that with a household fan.


Gee murlin, I don't see how you are going to avoid numbers in the rotor game. At a minimum, you need the airfoil numbers to design the rotors to test. Testing an arbitrary design won't provide much useful information.


I'm not trying to discourage you from doing the project - just pointing out some of the pitfalls.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 12:57:54 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2006, 01:44:37 PM »
Hrmmm...I was going to use already tested airfoils.


Like the ones here that I listed the profiles on plus the one everyone else uses to make their blades.


You are correct about the numbers, but I prol wouldn't know what to do with them if I had them, or even how to get them.


For the box fan Idea, I think you are also right and I would have to get a motor and pully system to test different wind speeds.


I would be happy to go by any advice anyone could give me though.


I was going to use a more workable scale though.  Prol make the blades 1 foot long each.


Any blade should be able to be made out of a 2 x 4 that way.  And not have to have so much wind.


If you take scale air and move it across a scale rotor, the blade that will turn with the most torque and still start up at the right cut in and hold the correct TSR through different wind speeds, should be the one to use, right?


Or am I looking at this all wrong?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 01:44:37 PM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2006, 04:36:09 PM »
I tell ya what Sammo, I will do my best to get you the right Re from my tests.


Reading the link willib put up a couple times, and I am not sure about the viscosity #, but they have another simpler formula to use also.


Wouldn't the end result of a perfect airfoil, be the one that lets the rotor spin up to max speed in the fastest time, with the correct torque?


If so, then I need to know how much friction to put on the shaft to simulate load......


Murlin teh   Ruh Row....Help!!!

« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 04:36:09 PM by Murlin »

SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2006, 03:33:47 AM »
"You are correct about the numbers, but I prol wouldn't know what to do with them if I had them, or even how to get them."

Then, how are you going to design the blade of a rotor?


"I was going to use a more workable scale though.  Prol make the blades 1 foot long each."

I'm confused. A one foot blade makes a two foot rotor diameter. Same as in my example for a 20' full-scale.


"Any blade should be able to be made out of a 2 x 4 that way.  And not have to have so much wind."

A 1x2 would be more like it. If your 20 foot diameter full-scale rotor had a mean chord of 10", a 1/10 scale would be 1" and probably about 1/4" thick. Are you by any chance thinking that you can make a relatively wide blade with a certain airfoil and just make the blade short in length? If so, then I don't understand what you want to test. It certainly wouldn't represent a real world rotor. I thought what you wanted to do was to make scale model rotors and compare them. I don't understand the part about not needing so much wind.


"If you take scale air and move it across a scale rotor, the blade that will turn with the most torque and still start up at the right cut in and hold the correct TSR through different wind speeds, should be the one to use, right?"

The name of the game is rotor efficiency to get the best power for a given rotor size. Cut-in and TSR are primarily dictated by the alternator, although TSR does have an effect on efficiency. We can calculate the power in the wind for a given swept area and wind speed. To get the rotor efficiency we need to measure the power delivered by the rotor to a matched load. To get power, we need to measure both RPM and torque along with wind speed.


"Wouldn't the end result of a perfect airfoil, be the one that lets the rotor spin up to max speed in the fastest time, with the correct torque?"

Not necessarily. You are talking about measuring acceleration. There are factors besides the airfoil that effect acceleration. Inertial and frictional loads, for example. The rotor that accelerates the quickest won't necessarily be the most efficient. In the real world we don't care very much about acceleration except possibly for gust response time. What is the 'correct' torque?


I'm not quite sure we're on the same page yet murlin.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 03:33:47 AM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2006, 08:40:11 AM »
"I'm not quite sure we're on the same page yet murlin."


Ya I think we are getting close.  :)


Your right 1 x 2 will work.


I was not planning on making a wider blade.


By less wind I meant by using a 1 ft blade with less wind was: that the blades would be a little bigger and easier to work with.


Less wind meant the wind velocity would be less to get it to scale.


Also, I thought the torque would be easier to measure in larger amounts as applied for load simulation.


You said that the wind will affect things differently according to their size. And I was thinking along those lines and thought perhaps that if you make your scale to as large as possible, as long as the size was still economical and manageable in size to do in the garage, it would be better and and would be closer to real time.


I was thinking that to design a rotor to do a specific job, you would need to know how much load the alternator would pull against the rotors.  If you knew this, you could add a scale amount of that friction to the shaft.


But I guess it would be pretty easy to also measure the amount of torque that the rotors are putting on the shaft as well with the same friction device.


So Yes I think we are about on the same page.


It is a little confusing at first to see what needs to happen...


I think I can see what needs to happen, thanks for being patient with me :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 08:40:11 AM by Murlin »

SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2006, 12:08:16 PM »
First of all, I need to correct something I said earlier about Reynolds number and scale. That's what I get for trying to write when not fully awake.


What I said about it was for a fixed, scale airfoil in a wind tunnel, not a rotating one like a rotor. Obviously, RPM enters into it. The idea is that we need to have an inverse scaled air velocity over our scaled rotor blade to achieve the same Reynolds number as an equivilent full scale blade. This would imply a higher TSR but I don't think we want that either. I need to think about this some more.


"I was thinking that to design a rotor to do a specific job, you would need to know how much load the alternator would pull against the rotors.  If you knew this, you could add a scale amount of that friction to the shaft."

This is what I was saying about the chicken and egg game. Who comes first? I think it's better to optimize the rotor for efficiency THEN design the alternator to match it. I don't think it's necessary to know the amount of load when measuring the rotor output. You would adjust the load to achieve the RPM dictated by the rotor design TSR at a given air velocity and measure the torque. From that you can derive the efficiency and power available to apply to the alternator design. Of course, once you have a rotor design that gives the desired efficiency, it can be scaled in size to give the power you want.


"But I guess it would be pretty easy to also measure the amount of torque that the rotors are putting on the shaft as well with the same friction device."

Bingo! In a wind tunnel you could do this simply with a spring scale connected to an arm mounted on the reaction element of the friction load device. Spring scales wouldn't work for live wind however.


We're getting there.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 12:08:16 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2006, 01:04:25 PM »
Ok I think we are on the same page now.


And for spring friction device:


I would take a piece of wood/metal, drill and tap a hole in it, and mount it solidly over the spinning shaft down wind.


Then take a piece of nylon and drop it in the hole over the shaft.

Then put a spring into the tapped hole and follow with a bolt.

One could then measure the amount of pressure that one turn of the bolt will put on the shaft(done with a set of scales before it was mounted on top of the shaft).


Using different load springs will let you put different pressures on the shaft...


Experimenting would have to be done on springs to get you to the right torque range and still have some adjustment for testing.


Since I already have my rotors and magnets however, I am committed to a certain size motor, around 3-7k depending on how I wind my stator. So that is why I wanted to know the torque this particular load range puts out.


If I knew how much torque 7KW put on the shaft, I could design a rotor that would be sure to start below the cut in(60 RPM) and perhaps reach MAX RPM in the fastest time.


Getting up to Max RPM in the shortest time would indicate to me, a more powerful rotor.  That might be all wrong, but it just seems that way at the moment.


RPM above the MAX would be wasted, since you would be shutting down when you reached MAX AMPS.  So designing a rotor to get there the quickest would be a direct result of better lift and take in those short bursts of wind that seem to happen more so than a steady flow of wind.


You could even play around with the root AOA to help get more torque.


Some have stated that they feel this is the area to improve anyways, and I tend to agree, it sounds like the most logical place for improvement.


But I think I might be able to get some numbers from this experiment that could be useful to someone else besides me, and that would be a good thing.... :)


I am going to have my machine tied up on "Real life" work that pays for about a month, so I will have to put this project on the back burner until I get done with my work first.


I will be buying a wood planer after I get paid....WOOT!!!


Needed one of those anyway.....


If you have any airfoils to be tested, I will be happy to machine them along with all the rest.


Put up a pic and I will digitize it....


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 01:04:25 PM by Murlin »

RP

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2006, 06:52:46 PM »
Murlin,


I'd like to add a few thoughts on this:


"One could then measure the amount of pressure that one turn of the bolt will put on the shaft(done with a set of scales before it was mounted on top of the shaft).

Using different load springs will let you put different pressures on the shaft...

Experimenting would have to be done on springs to get you to the right torque range and still have some adjustment for testing."


There's a big difference between the static and dynamic friction you'll get with this method.  Also it will chage with time since the nylon will wear and become more polished, the metal shaft will be polished also and frictional heat will change the dimensions and frictional characteristics of both.  It will kind of work but you can't count on calibration of the mechanisms based on spring pressure to be stable at all.  A simple fingerprint on the shaft will change the friction significantly.


I actually wrote a long text description of a method using eddy currents before I realized a flaw in my thinking and deleted it.  The Eddy-Current part is a good idea though so I'll throw it out here for development by the group.  A couple methods come to mind.



  1.  A length of copper pipe sleeved onto the shaft downwind with a nearby parallel Neo bar magnet to provide an eddy current brake.
  2.  A small copper or aluminum disk to do the same thing.


Measurement of torque will need the force trying to drag the magnet and the distance of the magnet from the center of rotation.  Force you can measure with your spring scale but I'm not sure if the distance is to the face of the magnet or somewhere inside it.


"Getting up to Max RPM in the shortest time would indicate to me, a more powerful rotor.  That might be all wrong, but it just seems that way at the moment."


Getting to Max RPM means accelerating from dead stall, through partial stall to unloaded max TSR.  Any or all of these conditions will be affected by any changes you make and you won't be able to know which condition improved.  For instance if you make an airfoil change and it gets to max speed quicker, Maybe it just comes out of dead stall faster and that characteristic will not be helpful at achieving max power in a steady wind.


This is a neat topic!

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 06:52:46 PM by RP »

SamoaPower

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2006, 07:03:48 PM »
I moved this over to give a little more writing space.


Can't say I agree with many of your points.


I don't see how your proposed friction load will let you measure torque which is necessary to measure rotor power. Also, you don't want to start a test run with the load on, it'll never start. You want to be able to smoothly adjust the load from zero to max while it's turning.


"Since I already have my rotors and magnets however, I am committed to a certain size motor, around 3-7k depending on how I wind my stator. So that is why I wanted to know the torque this particular load range puts out."

Okay, so you want to design a rotor to match your partial alternator, basically, magnet power. Torque in ft-lb = (Pkw x 3918)/RPM. This would be for the INPUT power to the alternator. To get the input power required, you need to know something about the alternator efficiency at a given output power. This means that you essentially have to do a complete alternator design first, because its efficiency is a big variable depending on many things. You might want to read Flux' treatise again. You may have put the cart before the horse by machining your rotors first. THINK SYSTEM DESIGN!


"If I knew how much torque 7KW put on the shaft, I could design a rotor that would be sure to start below the cut in(60 RPM) and perhaps reach MAX RPM in the fastest time."

With an axial flux alternator, start-up is not an issue. Almost any rotor will start okay. Other than bearing and seal friction and inertia, there is no load on the rotor at start-up. The electrical load won't begin to be applied until you reach cut-in RPM and even at that, it'll be small. This is why I have trouble seeing your interest in acceleration. It doesn't seem to tell you much. What you really want to know is the rotor efficiency in the wind speed range that produces useful power. By the way, how did you determine the 60 RPM cut-in?


"RPM above the MAX would be wasted, since you would be shutting down when you reached MAX AMPS.  So designing a rotor to get there the quickest would be a direct result of better lift and take in those short bursts of wind that seem to happen more so than a steady flow of wind."

There are two schools of thought on rotor acceleration beyond cut-in speed. Using rotor weight as an example, since weight determines inertia, which also effects acceleration, and comparing two rotors, one weighing twice the other. One school says, as you do, that the lighter rotor, which accelerates more quickly, will take more advantage of additional power in the gusts compared to the heavier one. The other school says that the heavier rotor will store more energy in the flywheel effect and release that energy during the short lulls of the wind. I think it's probably a wash with neither having much advantage in total energy harvest.


Another point about an acceleration measurement in model rotor testing, is how do you apply a variable load to the rotor, as it accelerates, to simulate the variable load of an alternator?  The alternator load is not a constant.


"You could even play around with the root AOA to help get more torque."


"Some have stated that they feel this is the area to improve anyways, and I tend to agree, it sounds like the most logical place for improvement."


Boy, I have to strongly disagree on this point. The first 20% of a blades radius (starting at the center of rotation) only contributes about 4% of the power out of a rotor. In fact, I wouldn't even put an airfoil on that first 20% and instead, design it for the structural needs of the blade and fastening to the hub. On my 16' rotor the airfoil starts at 25% radius with no start-up issues and an efficiency of 42%. There may be sone advantage to more root if you have a high starting load such as a badly cogging motor conversion. For axial flux machines, I don't see it.


Oh, forget what I said about scale air velocity. It's wrong for a rotor but right for a wing.


Are we moving forward of backwards?

« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 07:03:48 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2006, 06:16:21 AM »
"By the way, how did you determine the 60 RPM cut-in?"


I started off by trying to mimic what Danb is doing with his 20' genny.


Seemed like a good thing to do since I didn't have a clue....still don't have much of one, but I am picking up bits and pieces of the puzzle along the way.


I can see your point about not wanting to add all the torque to the shaft all at once from startup though...


I think there is a solution to that one also....


Forward or backwards?


LOL....Forward for sure....I just hope by trying to pick you guys brain, I don't have a meltdown in the process....because you guys are way ahead of me here....


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 06:16:21 AM by Murlin »

wdyasq

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2006, 10:58:28 AM »
Murlin,


I live in Tolar. If you contact me at rgbrown AT itexas dot net I can met you face to face and clear up a lot of your thought process (I'll bring my clue hammer).


Ron

« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 10:58:28 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

Murlin

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Re: Airfoils
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2006, 12:32:26 PM »
You have mail buddy :)


Murlin

« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 12:32:26 PM by Murlin »